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Thread: Does God establish rulers?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I have a christian friend from Romania who lived under the evil Communist dictator Ceausescu who killed and imprisoned people including believers.
    Some terrible stories of torture were done to believers who would not renounce their faith usually those in christian leadership.
    God was still able to work in the general lives of christians. Yes it was tough and hard but they did not have any directive to overthrow the government and had to submit to their authority.
    Even in nazi germany or north korea the authorities punish wrongdoers and even honor those who do good to some extent. They collect taxes to carry out those functions. So a very general rebellion is out of the question, one where people feel they have a right to go rogue and be completely at odds with everything. I believe Paul was iterating that the Roman empire did upkeep those functions at least to some extent. Starting with obedience then applying "obeying God more than men" is the Christian thing to do.

    Looking for the government to be replaced by something better is a bit different. I'm sure the Christians in Romania prayed to God for that to happen. And the Christians under emperor Nero, likewise.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Our nation has a population of 24 million and right above us is Indonesia the biggest Islamic nation with a population of 220 million. There are some christians who say we may be invaded and oppressed by Islam because of our rejection of the gospel and embracing of much perverted evil behaviour.

    It would not be God's perfect will but it could be possible and we would have to submit in general and practise our christian faith in private and learn to live under Islam.

    In this case we would have to accept Romans 13 that God has allowed Islam to rule for a season and trust that it would lead to great repentance among the people and eventually the overthrow of the Islamic govt.

    This would certainly sort out the true and false believers because currently the church is mixed and polluted
    Also the current rotten atheistic, humanist, feminist, gay agendas would all be destroyed by Islam and as the Bible shows they end up doing God's will in removing this evil

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Our nation has a population of 24 million and right above us is Indonesia the biggest Islamic nation with a population of 220 million. There are some christians who say we may be invaded and oppressed by Islam because of our rejection of the gospel and embracing of much perverted evil behaviour.

    It would not be God's perfect will but it could be possible and we would have to submit in general and practise the faith in private and learn to live under Islam.

    In this case we would have to accept Romans 13 that God has allowed Islam to rule for a season and trust that it would lead to great repentance among the people and eventually the overthrow of the Islamic govt.
    When it comes to conquering regimes there is the new question of which regime is legitimate and which isn't. When nazi germany invaded Norway in 1940, the king and the Norwegian government fled to England. Which one was now the legitimate government ? The one in exile lead resistance activities but the nazi government ran Norway in general. Including punishing outright criminals, making society function for the lawabiding citizen etc. Going rogue as in outright criminal based on the nazi government being illegitimate was not the Christian thing to do. Resisting it with the intent of bringing it down so it would be replaced by something more legitimate was a different matter.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    This would certainly sort out the true and false believers because currently the church is mixed and polluted
    Also the current rotten atheistic, humanist, feminist, gay agendas would all be destroyed by Islam and as the Bible shows they end up doing God's will in removing this evil
    I don't think an Islamic country conquering and ruling Australia is possible given current world politics. A more likely scenario is that immigration eventually brings Islamic rule or before that happens, that Islam becomes a powerful current in society. Not necessarily in terms of conversions but as a political force. Which could add to the problems Christians already have.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Even in the Roman Empire there were continual resistance movements throughout its domain.
    Jews and other nations were always being slaughtered as certain groups were always rising up. Barabbas was one of those opposing yet Jesus never instructed the Jews to join Barabbas.



    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    When it comes to conquering regimes there is the new question of which regime is legitimate and which isn't. When nazi germany invaded Norway in 1940, the king and the Norwegian government fled to England. Which one was now the legitimate government ? The one in exile lead resistance activities but the nazi government ran Norway in general. Including punishing outright criminals, making society function for the lawabiding citizen etc. Going rogue as in outright criminal based on the nazi government being illegitimate was not the Christian thing to do. Resisting it with the intent of bringing it down so it would be replaced by something more legitimate was a different matter.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I don't think an Islamic country conquering and ruling Australia is possible given current world politics. A more likely scenario is that immigration eventually brings Islamic rule or before that happens, that Islam becomes a powerful current in society. Not necessarily in terms of conversions but as a political force. Which could add to the problems Christians already have.
    I agree as America is our ally and it would not currently happen.

    If America were to suddenly be defeated and retreat to its own borders for survival I have no doubt Islam would rise quickly and dramatically and we would have a massive Islamic influx.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Even in the Roman Empire there were continual resistance movements throughout its domain.
    Jews and other nations were always being slaughtered as certain groups were always rising up. Barabbas was one of those opposing yet Jesus never instructed the Jews to join Barabbas.
    Jesus wasn't pro-Roman either. He avoided disputes on who to obey, Jewish or Roman authorities. He could have been clear cut but he chose not to be. As can be seen in his discussion about paying Roman taxes. Roman soldiers asked John the Baptist what to do and he basically told them to do their job properly.

    The Romans didn't persecute population groups incorporated in the empire like the nazis persecuted jews etc. Only if they rebelled. They also allowed them freedom of religion but this eventually ceased to apply to Christians, making them more of a persecutor rather than a government according to biblical definitions. Obeying them now would imply turning oneself and fellow christians in, surely that wasn't God's idea of "obeying the government".

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