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Thread: The Watch Tower Society vs Christianity

  1. #31
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    Post Re: The Watch Tower Society vs Christianity

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebersHome View Post
    it's very easy to prove that Christ descended biologically from Adam.
    Adam was created directly from the earth's dust. Not so Eve.

    She was created from a human tissue sample amputated from Adam's side. Thus Eve's flesh wasn't the flesh of a second species of h.sapiens. Her flesh was biologically just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's except for gender. In other words: Eve was the flip side of the same biological coin. (Gen 5:2)

    So then, any human beings biologically produced from Eve's flesh-- whether virgin conceived or naturally conceived --would be biologically just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's because the source of its mother's flesh was Adam.

    †. Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

    Just about everybody agrees that the seed spoken of in that passage is Christ. Well; seeing as how his mom's flesh was derived biologically from Eve, then Christ's flesh is just as much Eve's flesh as Eve's, and seeing as how her flesh was just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's, then it's readily deduced that Adam is Christ's biological progenitor.

    It's commonly objected that women cannot provide the Y chromosome necessary for producing a male child. And that's right; they usually can't. However, seeing as how God constructed an entire woman from a sample of man flesh; then I do not see how it would be any more difficult for God to construct a dinky little Y chromosome from a sample of woman flesh. And seeing as how woman flesh is just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's, then any Y chromosome that God might construct from woman flesh would actually be produced from Adam's flesh seeing as how Eve's flesh was produced from Adam's flesh.

    Bottom line: In order to qualify as one of Adam's biological descendants, a person need only be one of Eve's biological descendants: which we all are.

    †. Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

    On numerous occasions, Christ identified himself as "son of man". That title was neither new nor unique in his day. God addressed the prophet Ezekiel as "son of man" on at least 93 occasions; and in every case, the Hebrew word for man is 'adam (aw-dawm') which is the proper name of the human race God that created in the very beginning from the flesh of just one man. If Jesus Christ had not biologically descended from Adam, then he would be a bald-faced liar for calling himself son of man.

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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by WebersHome View Post
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    My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and naïve, and thus assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water who came down the driveway was a fellow Christian. But when I talked this over with a Protestant church elder he became alarmed; and urged me to read a little book titled 30 Years A Watchtower Slave by William J. Schnell; whom the Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be surprised if it still does.

    After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards steered towards another book titled Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

    Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of classes sponsored by a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The instructor (call him Pete) was an ex Witness who had been in the Watch Tower Society system for near three decades and was a wide-area manager before terminating his association with the Society; so he knew the ins and outs of its doctrines pretty good.

    Pete pioneered a small organization in San Diego dedicated to de-programming and re-educating ex Witnesses. It was a challenge. The ex JW's with whom Pete worked were often very depressed with feelings of betrayal and disillusionment-- not to mention the humiliation and the despondence they were experiencing from letting themselves be duped by the Society's ingenious sophistry --and found it nigh impossible to trust ecclesiastical authority. Pete said that had he not been an ex Witness himself; many of his students would never have listened to him.

    Pete didn't train us to defeat the Society's missionaries in a discussion because even if you best them scripture for scripture, rebuttal for rebuttal, and refute for refute, they will not give up on the Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it can be easily proven wrong. No, he trained us to do seven things:

    1• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and discuss it with you.

    2• Don't give them a chance to launch into their spiel, but immediately put them on the defensive with your own questions, thus denying them control of the conversation

    3• Do not get embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas, Christmas trees, blood transfusions, the design of the wooden device upon which Christ was crucified, service in the military, and that sort of thing.

    4• Force them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise your voice. Do not let them turn their attention elsewhere while you're speaking.

    5• Do not permit them to butt in and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly, insist that they remain silent until you are finished speaking.

    6• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They will sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

    7• It's very important to show them the Bible not in ways they've already seen, but in ways they've never imagined.

    The goal is to simply show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only interpretation out there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's interpretations aren't the only option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right interpretations just because they say so.

    Later on, I read a book titled Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses by Ted Dencher and eventually purchased a copy of the Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures to use in my discussions with missionaries because it is the one Bible that they cannot challenge; nor dare to challenge. I also read and studied the Society's little brown book titled Reasoning From The Scriptures.

    From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although the Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in Society-speak than what you'd expect. It is genuinely a case of apples and oranges going by the same names. So your first challenge in dealing with a Watch Tower missionary is to scale the semantics barrier; and that by itself is an Herculean task.

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    Good post Webers, do have anything you can share about the Mormons also? Maybe start a new thread on LDS?

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by krystian View Post
    do have anything you can share about the Mormons also?
    In my judicious estimation, the only thing about Mormonism worth discussing is its two priesthoods because once Mormonism's priesthoods are debunked, Joseph Smith and his entire system of beliefs and practices crumble into ruins.

    Long story short: according to the Bible, both the order of Aaron and the order of Melchizedek are high-priest priesthoods. Well that's a problem for Mormon men right there because the Bible allows only one active high priest at a time rather than a guild of active high priests.

    The Bible's Aaronic priests hold office for life; viz: they cannot be replaced until they die. The order of Melchizedek is even stricter. According to the Bible; it's held by men who never die; viz: only an immortal man can be a Melchizedekian priest. Well; seeing as how Mormon men die all the time on a regular basis, then they are eo ipso excluded from the order of Melchizedek.

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  7. #34
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    †. Jer 10:10 . . Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God

    Yhvh is called "the living god" something like fifteen times in the Old Testament, and fifteen more times in the New Testament.

    I'm unaware of any other gods in the whole Bible labeled living gods. Because of that; I think it safe to conclude that no other god is a living god; viz: all other gods are lifeless gods; including the gods in Psalm 82 of whom it is said "You are gods". And if the Word of John 1:1 is merely another god, then he too is a lifeless god; along with the only-begotten god of John 1:18. If that's true, then it would be legitimate to paraphrase John 1:1 like this:

    "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with the living God, and the Word was a lifeless god."

    And John 1:18 like this:

    "No man has seen the living God at any time; the only-begotten lifeless god, who is in the bosom position with the Father, is the one that has explained him."

    Just about everybody on both sides of the aisle agrees that Jesus Christ is a god. The trick is: Jesus Christ isn't like the other gods; no, he's a living god.

    †. John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

    When God granted the Son to have life in himself just as the Father has life in Himself, things got a bit complicated; viz: it appears that God caused there to be one too many living gods out there.

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  9. #35
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    †. Matt 22:41-46 . . Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question; saying: What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He? They said to Him: The son of David. He said to them: Then how does David in the Spirit call Him "Lord" saying: The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at My right hand until I put thine enemies beneath thy feet. If David then calls Him "Lord" how is He his son?

    Jesus quoted Psalm 110:1, where there are two distinct Hebrew words for "lord". The first is yhvh, a name reserved exclusively for God. The second is 'adown, which is a very common title of respect for one's superiors in the Old Testament. Sarah revered her husband Abraham as 'adown (Gen 18:12) Rachel revered her dad Laban as 'adown (Gen 31:5) and Jacob revered his brother Esau as 'adown (Gen 33:8). So then; Psalm 110:1 can be translated like this:

    "The utterance of Jehovah to my superior: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."

    Well; let me tell you something: anybody who knew the Old Testament in Jesus' day knew good and well from Ps 89:27 that David has no superiors but God because no king that you might name is David's superior other than Yhvh: the king of all kings. Yet here on the pages of Jewish scripture is one of David's own grandchildren outranking him.

    Now; here's something else that I'm 110% positive crossed the minds of Jesus' learned opposition. To their way of thinking, David's position as God's firstborn as per Ps 89:27 is irrevocable. Well; seeing as how there is no intermediate rank between the firstborn's position and the paterfamilias' position, that would mean that the superior about whom David spoke in Ps 110:1 is equal in power and rank to God; which is a blasphemous suggestion to say the least. (chuckle) Those poor know-it-all Pharisees were utterly baffled beyond words.

    †. Matt 22:46 . . And no one was able to answer him a word

    Well; no surprise there. This was something not only strange to their Jewish way of thinking; but entirely new, yet there it was in black and white in their own scriptures; and they had somehow failed to catch its significance until Jesus drew their attention to it.

    What the Watch Tower Society seems unaware is that a human doesn't have to be God in order to hold the rank of God; no, the human only needs to be promoted to the rank of God; and as such then qualifies to not only sit upon God's throne as God; but also to use God's name as its own. According to Dan 7:13-17 and Php 2:8-11 this is exactly how it is that one of David's grandchildren outranks him.

    But though the now-deified Jesus Christ is entitled to all the worship, service, and respect that the name of God deserves; he remains subordinate to a higher power.

    †. 1Cor 15:27-28 . . For God "subjected all things under his feet." But when he says that "all things have been subjected" it is evident that it is with the exception of the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

    Joseph's experience is an interesting parallel to Christ's unique situation. Joseph began his sojourn in the land of Egypt as a nobody; and in time was falsely accused of a felony and sent to prison. From thence he was elevated to the rank of pharaoh. He wasn't the actual pharaoh, but his position was equal in power to the actual pharaoh and nobody in Egypt was higher in rank than him except the actual pharaoh.

    †. Gen 41:40-44 . .You will personally be over my house, and all my people will obey you implicitly. Only as to the throne shall I be greater than you. And Pharaoh added to Joseph: See, I do place you over all the land of Egypt. With that Pharaoh removed his signet ring from his own hand and put it upon Joseph's hand and clothed him with garments of fine linen and placed a necklace of gold about his neck.

    . . . Moreover, he had him ride in the second chariot of honor that he had, so that they should call out ahead of him: Kneel! thus putting him over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh further said to Joseph: I am Pharaoh, but without your authorization no man may lift up his hand or his foot in all the land of Egypt.

    Joseph's brothers fell in line.

    †. Gen 44:18 . . Judah now came near to him and said: I pray you, my master, please let your slave speak a word in the hearing of my master, and do not let your anger grow hot against your slave, because it is the same with you as with Pharaoh.

    So it is with Christ: viz: when people deal with Jesus Christ; it's all the same as dealing with God; and they'll treat him as God too if they know what's good for them.

    †. Isa 45:23 . . I am God, and there is no one else. By my own self I have sworn-- out of my own mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return --that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear

    †. Php 2:10 . . In the name of Jesus every knee should bend-- of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the ground --and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Sovereign: to the glory of God the Father.

    NOTE: Some Witnesses object to labeling Jesus "sovereign" claiming the ancient Greek word only indicates a title of respect like Sir, Lord, Mister, or Master.

    However; the Greek word that the Watch Tower Society renders "Lord" at Php 2:9-11 is the very same word that it renders "Jehovah" at Matt 1:20. Matt 1:22, and Matt 1:24, Matt 2:13, Matt 2:15 etc, etc, etc.

    Kurios is versatile-- a lot more than a mere title of common courtesy. It also pertains to someone in actual authority, and if Php 2:9-11 is studied in concert with Dan 7:13-14 and 1Pet 3:22, it's readily apparent that "sovereign" is the appropriate title for Jesus Christ. But if the Watch Tower Society and its loyal-to-the-bone minions refuse to do obeisance to Jesus Christ as their sovereign; leave them be because there is a day coming when even those under the ground will all do so.

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  11. #36
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    †. Col 1:15 . . He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

    The Watch Tower Society has appropriated that verse as evidence that the Word of John 1:1-3 was the first thing that God ever created. However, the New Testament Greek word for "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos which the Watchtower Society has construed to mean "created first" but prototokos never means created first; no, it always means born first; viz: the eldest offspring. The correct Greek word for created first is protoktistos.

    The average door-to-door Watch Tower Society missionary doesn't know this; and no doubt would care little for it anyway. To them; born first and created first are one and the same.

    FYI: Though the birth order of the child born first is chronologically set in concrete; its advantages are transferable to a younger sibling; e.g. Esau and Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben and Joseph. (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1)

    There was a time when David held the rank of God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27). Anon, its advantages were transferred to one of David's sons. (Ps 110:1, Dan 7:13-14, Mark 12:35-37, Php 2:9-11, Col 1:15)

    OBJECTION: Jesus Christ being "born first," as stated at Colossians 1:15 is evidence, from the scriptures, that Jesus Christ must have been created. Why so? Because only created beings can be "born."

    RESPONSE: The objector encumbered themselves with a humanistic axiom that very effectively paralyzed their thinking; viz: apparently it had not yet occurred to them that it just might be possible that God is able to reproduce.

    However, "firstborn" is not restricted to birth-- it's primarily the title of a position of superiority; and as such, is transferable.

    Putting that in an Army chain of command context: there's the privates, the sergeants, the officers, and ultimately the US President-- supreme commander of all the armed forces. In rank, and in principle; Mr. Obama is the firstborn of all the armed forces; but after the next election, the torch may very well pass to Hillary Clinton and then she will be the firstborn of all the armed forces.

    But we're not done here yet. According to Col 1:16-17, God's son created all things, and existed before all things: which means of course that God's son not only created Adam but also that God's son preceded Adam. Well; it's very easy to prove that Christ descended biologically from Adam. So the fact of the matter is: God's son created Christ's biological progenitor.

    I suspect the Trinity's opponents get fouled up with Christ's origin because they are unable to discern the difference between the Word of John 1:1-3 and the flesh that the Word became in John 1:14.

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  13. #37
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    Post Re: The Watch Tower Society vs Christianity

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    One day, a pair of Witnesses came to my door consisting of an experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the trainee to a line of questioning that homed in on the Society's rather dishonest habit of penciling in modifiers that go to reinforcing it's line of thinking. For example:

    Below are some passages taken word-for-word from a version of the Watch Tower Society's proprietary Bible. Watch for the word in brackets: it's very important.

    Col 1:16a . . By means of him all [other] things were created.

    Col 1:16b . . All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

    Col 1:17 . . Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.

    I pointed out to the trainee that the word "other" is in brackets to indicate that it's not in the New Testament's Greek manuscripts. The Society's editors took the liberty to pencil it into the English text; thus forcing Paul to substantiate their doctrine that the Word of John 1:1-3 is a creature. If perchance some of the Society's missionaries don't know that then all I can say is they have a lot of catching up to do.

    Anyway, I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passages sans the bracketed word. Here they are with [other] removed.

    "By means of him all things were created"

    "All things have been created through him and for him"

    "Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to exist"

    The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to discover that those passages reveal something quite different than what he was led to believe.

    If the passages without the penciled word are valid; viz: if God's beloved son created all things rather than all other things; then no question about it; John 1:3 is literal; viz: it means exactly what it says and requires no interpretation.

    It also means that the Word of John 1:1 is the God of Genesis 1:1. But it would likely be futile to point this out to a seasoned Watch Tower Society missionary because they are typically far more loyal to the Society than they are to either Paul or John.

    Now; as to forcing Paul's teachings to mean things they don't say in writing; this is what Peter has to say about that.

    †. 2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all his letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    Untaught people are oftentimes self-taught; and were modern Witnesses to check into ol' Charles T. Russell's rather ignoble past; they'd find that "self-taught" pretty much describes the origin of the Society's theology.

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    Post Re: The Watch Tower Society vs Christianity

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    Q: One translation of John 1:18 says that Jesus is the only-begotten god; while another translation of John 1:18 says Jesus is the only-begotten son. Which translation is correct?

    A: Either one will do because, biologically speaking, they're both saying the very same thing. But for clarity's sake; let's assume that "only-begotten god" is correct. What are the ramifications of that?

    Well; according to John 17:3 it suggests that the only true god's offspring is the only true god; otherwise he'd be a false god; which is about as possible as my offspring being a false human. In other words: like always begets like. If the only true god were to reproduce, His offspring would be more of His own kind just as when I reproduce, my offspring is more of my own kind. Get my drift?

    John 1:18 implies that when the only true god begot a son, He begot more of Himself; viz: He begot a god that's of the species the only true god. It's either that or the only true god begot not a species of god of His own kind; but a species of god of another kind; which would be like me begetting not a species of human of my own kind, but a species of human of an alien kind.

    I watched an educational series on NetFlix in September of 2014 called "The Inexplicable Universe: Unsolved Mysteries" hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson PhD, director of the Hayden Planetarium. Mr. Tyson said, in so many words; that in the study of Physics, one must sometimes abandon sense and accept discoveries as they are no matter how contrary to logic they may seem.

    The NASA teams that sent Pioneers, Voyagers and Mariners out to explore the solar system came to the very same conclusion: they learned to abandon their logical expectations and instead expect the unexpected; and they encountered plenty.

    In the field of Christianity, as in the fields of Physics and planetary exploration, faith believes what's revealed to it rather than only what makes sense to it. I readily admit that the only true god multiplying to produce another of Himself also called the only true god, makes no sense whatsoever. But just as science admits to many unsolved mysteries; so does Christianity. And there's no shame in that. The shame is in pretending to have complete understanding of a supernatural religion that by its very nature defies reasoning and common sense.

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    Post Re: The Watch Tower Society vs Christianity

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    The Watch Tower Society insists that human life is entirely physical-- people cease to exist when their bodies expire. The Society substantiates its doctrine with some things that Solomon wrote in the book of Ecclesiastes.

    Traditional Christianity insists that human life is more than physical-- people continue to exist beyond the demise of their bodies. Traditional Christianity substantiates its doctrine with some things that Jesus Christ spoke in the New Testament.

    Solomon was a very wise man and the brightest intellectual of his day. But Christ claimed that his wisdom is superior to Solomon's.

    †. Luke 11:31 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with the men of this generation and will condemn them; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! Something more than Solomon is here.

    Solomon's understanding was limited, but Christ's is exceedingly vast.

    †. Col 2:3 . . In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Traditional Christianity casts its vote for Christ primarily because it believes that no man could possibly know more about the afterlife than he; and also because it is God's edict that people listen to His son.

    †. Matt 17:5 . . While Peter was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is My beloved son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to him.

    No doubt Solomon was inspired to put his world view in writing; but Christ was more than inspired to say the things he spoke; the things he spoke came directly from God.

    †. John 3:34-35 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words; for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

    †. John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

    †. John 8:28 . . I speak these things as the Father taught me.

    †. John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    †. John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

    In other words; people who take sides with Solomon against Jesus Christ have taken sides against God; and the repercussions of their choice are disastrous to say the least.

    †. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in His son is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves stands condemned already

    †. John 3:36 . . He that disbelieves the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

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    †. 2Tim 3:16 . . All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness

    As every competent Bible student knows: though all scripture is inspired by God, not all scripture is true. For example:

    "At this the serpent said to the woman: You positively will not die." (Gen 3:4)

    The serpent's statement is on record due to the inspiration of God: but the serpent's statement is false.

    Here's another:

    "But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said: You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die." (Gen 3:3)

    Though Eve's statement is in the record due to the inspiration of God, her statement is not entirely true. He didn't say they must not touch the fruit.

    Ecclesiastes is in the record due to the inspiration of God: and though it contains many truisms, not all that it contains is true. Solomon (if that's who actually wrote it) didn't record his observations from the perspective of a spiritual man who's privy to special knowledge beyond the scope of empirical evidence: but rather, he recorded his observations from the perspective of a man under the sun; viz: a worldly intellectual whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see going on around him in the physical rather than what he cannot see going on around him in the non-physical: and that's pretty much why it's so easy to find material in Ecclesiastes contrary to the doctrines of traditional Christianity.

    Ecclesiastes is popular with agnostics and atheists because it agrees, to a very large extent, with their own secular philosophies: viz: Solomon's comments are primarily an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven.

    Solomon spoke of death; but there's no textual evidence in the book of Ecclesiastes indicating that he had ever seen beyond death for himself to know what he was talking about. In contrast, there is an abundance of textual evidence indicating that Jesus Christ not only spoke of death, but he had seen beyond death for himself to know what he was talking about. (e.g. John 3:13, John 3:31-32, John 6:33, John 6:38, and 1John 1:1-3)

    So in my estimation, Christ's eye-witness reports carry far more weight than Solomon's IQ. His perspective was pretty much limited to what he could see for himself; while the traditional Christian perspective is enhanced by things that Christ can see for himself.

    Q: So then, in what way is Ecclesiastes beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness?

    A: It's very valuable for showing that life sans religion is meaningless. Humankind needs to believe in something higher than itself just to make sense of why people exist at all.

    Nobel Prize winner, author of several best-selling books, and recipient of at least a dozen honorary degrees; physicist Steven Weinberg (who views religion as an enemy of science), in his book "The First Three Minutes" wrote: The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it seems pointless. But if there is no solace in the fruits of our research, there is at least some consolation in the research itself . . . the effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things that lifts human life a little above the level of a farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy.

    Well of course Mr. Weinberg feels that way. How else could a thinking man feel when he believes in nothing higher than himself?

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

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