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Thread: Rules Governing The Gift Of Learning

  1. #11
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    Post Re: Rules Governing The Gift Of Learning

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    Rom 15:4 . .Whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance, and the encouragement of the scriptures, we might have hope.

    The koiné Greek word for "hope" in that passage is elpis (el pece') which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure) and to expect with confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, and confidence.

    Webster's definition of hope as a verb is very similar: 1) to desire with expectation of obtainment, and 2) to expect with confidence and trust. Note the elements of expectation, and confidence, and trust.

    Webster's definition of hope as a noun is: 1) a desire accompanied by expectation of, or belief in, fulfillment, and 2) expectation of fulfillment or success. Note the elements of expectation, and belief.

    In other words: elpis hope is a know-so hope rather than a cross your fingers hope.

    Rom 15:4 is saying that the Old Testament is useful for enlightening people's expectations, i.e. real things to look forward to. When people pass on without knowing anything about who, or what, is waiting for them on the other side; they tend to be a bit nervous about dying.

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    Actually a good group bible study is much more productive and informative than a typical Sunday school class where one person teaches and no one else is allowed to have input. Iron sharpens iron.
    If the "good group" about which you speak consisted of a conference of people all endowed with Christ's gift to teach for him as per Eph 4:11-16, then I'd probably agree there would be sharpening. But a group of non-endowed people all putting their two cents in? Absolutely not because, for one thing, what you are recommending is a rebellion against Christ's wishes for his body; what you are recommending is something akin to a Jane Austin book club.

    BTW: Maybe you could run your idea past the school board in your district. They would save taxpayers a heck of lot of money by having kids teach themselves instead of maintaining expensive staffs of qualified educators.

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  3. #13
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    So what does this "Christ's gift to teach" imply ? Does it mean that the tangible, supernatural power of the Holy Spirit will flow through you, giving you words to speak ? If not then how does it qualify as "Christ's gift" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by WebersHome View Post
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    If the "good group" about which you speak consisted of a conference of people all endowed with Christ's gift to teach for him as per Eph 4:11-16, then I'd probably agree there would be sharpening. But a group of non-endowed people all putting their two cents in? Absolutely not because, for one thing, what you are recommending is a rebellion against Christ's wishes for his body; what you are recommending is something akin to a Jane Austin book club.

    BTW: Maybe you could run your idea past the school board in your district. They would save taxpayers a heck of lot of money by having kids teach themselves instead of maintaining expensive staffs of qualified educators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    So what does this "Christ's gift to teach" imply ? Does it mean that the tangible, supernatural power of the Holy Spirit will flow through you, giving you words to speak ?
    1Cor 2:12-13 . . We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

    The interesting aspect of spiritual words is their simplicity. For example; Christ utilized ordinary words while teaching about eating his flesh and blood (John 6:63).

    So then; when somebody parrots that rather lengthy section in the gospel of John, they are parroting spiritual words, yes; however, parroting spiritual words and applying spiritual words, involves the use of two very different skill sets.

    Any 6th grade school kid can read, write, and recite spiritual words; but educated abilities like those do not indicate that the kid is a Christ-gifted teacher. No, the guy who can articulate the sense of those words in a way that even Forrest Gump can understand is the guy with the goods.

    But that's only half the story. The Spirit doesn't "flow thru" a Christ-gifted teacher as if they were a channel. No, the Spirit works alongside the Christ-gifted teacher; silently and invisibly, corroborating the things he's saying.

    1Cor 2:4-5 . . My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebersHome View Post
    But that's only half the story. The Spirit doesn't "flow thru" a Christ-gifted teacher as if they were a channel. No, the Spirit works alongside the Christ-gifted teacher; silently and invisibly, corroborating the things he's saying.

    @@@So what you're saying is that you have no perception of the Spirit working in any way, you simply define that he is - based on your own perception of yourself and your own perception of your teachings as doctrinally correct.

    1Cor 2:4-5 . . My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

    @@@A demonstration is different to theory and also different to a proclamation that Spirit and power is allegedely working. The people Paul preached to saw God work tangible miracles, they also sensed the Holy Spirit in a tangible way including when he came upon them and they were filled by him and spoke in tongues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The people Paul preached to saw God work tangible miracles, they also sensed the Holy Spirit in a tangible way including when he came upon them and they were filled by him and spoke in tongues.
    The apostles were given power to revive the dead. Seen any of that going on in your church lately?

    Tongues are easy to fake, but resurrections? not so much.

    And miracles? Forget it. Things like that aren't 100% effective; not even when they're performed by God himself on-site and in person.

    Deut 29:2-4 . . Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:

    . . .Your eyes have seen all that the Lord did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

    People sometimes express curiosity that learning is a gift. Well; there it is in black and white. So even if you can speak and/or interpret seventeen different tongues, but have not the gift of learning, you're nowhere yet; no, you're little more than a dumpster-diving pauper housed in cardboard instead of someone in a home of their own with a real roof over their heads dining on steak and eggs and fresh fruit.

    Rev 3:22 . . He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

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  9. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebersHome View Post
    The apostles were given power to revive the dead. Seen any of that going on in your church lately?

    Tongues are easy to fake, but resurrections? not so much.

    And miracles? Forget it. Things like that aren't 100% effective; not even when they're performed by God himself on-site.
    I've seen lots of tangible miracles happen and lots of people take up the faith as the result - including muslims, in fact several the last year. So have others in my church, including cancers shrivelling up and dying, ready to simply be removed by the surgeon. So have many others on this forum. I can sense the spirit of unbelief in your post so I'm not going to argue with you.

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  11. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebersHome View Post
    Deut 29:2-4 . . Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:

    . . .Your eyes have seen all that the Lord did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

    People sometimes express curiosity that learning is a gift. Well; there it is in black and white. So even if you can speak and/or interpret seventeen different tongues, but have not the gift of learning, you're nowhere yet; no, you're little more than a dumpster-diving pauper housed in cardboard instead of someone in a home of their own with a real roof over their heads dining on steak and eggs and fresh fruit.

    Rev 3:22 . . He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
    It's interesting that the verse you quoted about learning involves learning something from a tangible manifestation of the miracle working power of God. Pharaoh saw it and hardened his heart, he learned nothing from it. Others heard in their own languages the disciples speak to them about the things of God on the day of Pentecost and mocked them, claiming that they were drunk on wine. They hardened their hearts and learned nothing.

  12. #19
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    Post Re: Rules Governing The Gift Of Learning

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    Deut 29:2-5 . . Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:

    . . .You have seen with your own eyes everything the Lord did in Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and his whole country-- all the great tests of strength, the miraculous signs, and the amazing wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you minds that understand, nor eyes that see, nor ears that hear!

    By the time Moses made that statement, Israel had the Ten Commandments plus all but the final book of the Pentateuch, i.e. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers. After all that adventure, all their experiences, and all that scripture in their midst and at their disposal; how could Moses possibly say that their minds lacked understanding, their eyes were blind, and their ears deaf?

    Pretty amazing isn't it? Neither miracles, nor wonders, nor tests of strength between God and Egypt, nor the Ten Commandments, nor their God-given scriptures, had made any improvement whatsoever in the Jews' spiritual condition.

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