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Thread: 6 Signs of a Toxic 'Apostle' - J. Lee Grady

  1. #11
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The apostle John was more concerned with the truthfulness of people's claim to titles than their use of them :

    Revelation 2:2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars"

    When the term "the apostles" is used it refers to the twelve apostles of Jesus. Minus Judas Iscariot plus Matthias who became one in Acts 1. We may use it to include Paul as the thirteenth apostle.

    Someone today who has the ministry gift of an apostle shouldn't term themselves "one of the apostles" since that is a historical reference. But terming themselves "apostle Smith" is no different to someone terming themselves "pastor Edwards". If Smith really is an apostle, that is.

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    Senior Member Valiant Woman's Avatar
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    I will always address my pastor by his title, and those called to the office of any of the five fold ministry accordingly. It's a sign of respect just as I would give the President, governor, senator, or judge. I give honor to whom honor is due as we are commanded in scripture. But that's me.
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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Woman View Post
    I will always address my pastor by his title, and those called to the office of any of the five fold ministry accordingly. It's a sign of respect just as I would give the President, governor, senator, or judge. I give honor to whom honor is due as we are commanded in scripture. But that's me.
    Paul also says :

    2 Cor 12:6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

    Other translations render it as "above what can be gathered from seeing and hearing me"

    1 Cor 2:3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    So he didn't look or sound like much. He was Paul, a man. Then there was the anointing of the Holy Spirit and power that would move along with his preaching. An authority given by God and connected to his apostleship which he was a steward of. But there was still a dichotomy there, enough that the Corinthians would forget his miracles and start comparing memories of his unassuming presentation to the splendorous presentation of the "super-apostles".

    2 Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.

    There's a lot of splendorous self presentation going along with titles and abuse of the authority belonging to the title, even when the authority is genuine to begin with. The power is supposed to be from and of God and not an extension of what the apostle (or whatever other title) thinks of himself.

  6. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I met a minister last night from England who plants churches and he described himself as an apostle.
    From my small time with him he seems humble and sincere and was using the title as a description of what God called him to do not a title of prestige or honour or expecting obedience from others
    When they show the fruit of the title (along with the humility) then I have no problem with them addressing themselves this way.
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  8. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    This whole title mentality is religious and prideful. I don't demand or ask that anyone calls me "pastor". I don't see these offices/gifts being used as titles in the bible. The example given to us is that there are servant leaders placed in the body for the edification of that body.

    God uses me as a pastor, teacher and evangelist, but none of these can be shown to have been used as titles in the NT. Paul referred to himself as Paul. He often identified himself as Paul, an apostle........ but he never referred to himself as "THE APOSTLE PAUL."

    Look at John's humble greeting in Revelation 1:9-"I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ......."


    Talk about an "en-TITLE-ment mentality"!
    While I don't "demand" that people address me as pastor, I believe that this is better. When people become too familiar with you they have a tendency to disrespect you. I say this from EXPERIENCE. Thankfully for me, most people in (or even outside for the most part) of our congregation have automatically addressed me as pastor from the start so I have very seldom had the need to correct anyone. Most people refer to me as "Pastor Troy" vice the too formal "Pastor Edwards" which allows some spiritual fatherly closeness without being too casual or disrespectful. However, if anyone (primarily an adult) called me by my name without the title I would not insist that they refer to me as "pastor" unless I saw that they were intentionally being disrespectful.

    Besides, once I went past 50 years of age I figured that I have reached the point where that casual first name only stuff should only be reserved for family and close friends. Nonetheless, my children do not address me by my first name. I am always "dad" to my son and "daddy" to my girls. My nieces and nephews always address me as "Uncle Troy". If any of them disrespectfully called me "Troy" I would probably give them a loving but sound rebuke and remind them who changed their stankin' diapers.

    On the other hand, when I was in Japan I attended a Hawaiian church where everyone in leadership, including our pastor, went by a first name without titles (I was the only Black guy on the leadership along with 4 Hawaiians and one white guy). There was seldom, if ever, any disrespect to our pastor and we recognized him as God's appointed senior leader. Hence, every pastor is free to lead how the Lord leads him or her. There should be no set rules nor should anyone look down on someone else for how they conduct the ministry that God has given them.
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