Born of water AND spirit is what he says, the Pharisees knew about the first part.
Printable View
Born of water AND spirit is what he says, the Pharisees knew about the first part.
Its exactly the same even after Jesus died and was raised. OT and NT, all who live outside of God are under the curse of sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quest
You cannot simply dismiss John1v12. As many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even them who believe on his name.Quote:
There was no new birth even available to them. All that they did was led by the Holy Spirit but they did not have the promise given by Joel...Peter said on Pentecost 'this is that spoken of'.
This verse is all part of a single statement going back to the Logos/God/Light/Life/Creator in verse1.
Joel/Pentecost was not the indwelling renewal by the spirit, but the outpouring of the power of the Holy Spirit, ie. a second event separate and following after new birth. Such was also demonstrated on other occasions, and is still being demonstrated throughout the world today.
The majority of OT people knew nothing of a coming messiah. They simply had faith in God as creator and Lord of all. Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth and as such his blood was retrospectively applied for everyone who called out to the Lord of all, from Adam onwards.Quote:
The OT believers were kept by the faith they lived by and died in ...faith in the coming Messiah. But they died having not received the promise...Had Jesus not been raised from the dead we would ALL still be in our sins.
How is it possible for someone who knew nothing of the utter righteousness of God, to speak so abundantly of it. Everything we read of David in the psalms is first hand experiential testimony.Quote:
After Jesus was raised man was given the gift of HIS righteousness and the Holy Spirit was sent to be with us and IN us.
I am not sure why you posted this scripture as your explanation negates its value. Jesus being the firstborn simply refers to his status or pre-eminence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel
This scripture is also true for the millions of believers who have died since Christ also not seeing the full promise.Quote:
Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
Firstborn from the dead.
The OT saints not being born again was the reason they went to Abraham's Bosom instead of heaven. Jesus led captivity captive to heaven once He was raised from the dead.
There seems to be two exceptions, Enoch and Elijah. I'm not sure how that worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by fuego
Well, it says Enoch 'was not', right? Doesn't say where he went. And with Elijah, without looking at the text, does it say he was carried off into heaven? That might not mean literal heaven but off into the sky as observed by the writer. Obviously they had to shed their bodies at some point, but who knows what happened to the bodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel
Hebrews sheds more light on Enoch :
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Elijah :
2 Kings 2:11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
If he didn't end up in heaven but just in the sky then his body would either have to have been disintegrated or it would come down again. They searched for him for three days but could not find him. I don't know what the point to sending him into the sky to disintegrate would be though.
Did Elijah's body disintegrate and then his soul went down into "the bosom of Abraham" like the others ? It's conceivable. But Enoch seems to have escaped death entirely and that is the point. How did that work ?
Abraham's bosom has been quoted to me since the 70s and as far as I am concerned its just nonsense to make a doctrine out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fuego
Abraham's bosom was just a metaphor for going to the same place that Abraham resided. ie. heaven.
To reinvent it as a separate destination after death has about as much veracity as those who believe in purgatory.
Jesus' terminology concerning heaven and hell follows the contemporary Jewish scholar Josephus' terminology that he used in his "discourse to the greeks on hades" very closely. They both talk about the bosom of Abraham as being a compartment in Hades/Sheol separated from the compartment where the wicked like the rich man were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Drake