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Thread: Where does the BIBLE say we have FREE WILL?

  1. #81
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Was thinking while I was driving.


    I've never been to a gym but there the PT will push you through pain to get you to where you need to go.

    Sports people (especially boxers) have to learn pain and how to ignore it if they're to succeed.

    The elite of the military e.g. SAS have to learn to go on and on and on as they can't pull out of a mission 'cause they got a splinter in their little finger.

    Jesus learnt through suffering (Heb 5:8)

    David tells us God taught him to kill (which could be emotionally painful)

    So why is the idea that God would put us through something painful in order to prepare us for something more painful to come far fetched?
    Every good thing comes down from the Father of lights.
    The devil comes to kill, steal and destroy.

    Will God use an opportunity we create by not heeding His Word and His will to teach us and help us grow? ABSOLUTELY!
    Does God put us through evil to teach us? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    As someone already pointed out, God does not test us with evil.

    Jesus allowed satan to sift Peter like wheat. Jesus told him not to worry because He would be praying for him. He also told him that when he was restored/converted to strengthen his brethren.

    Jesus didn't sift Peter, but He did allow satan to. Why? I believe it was because of Peter's pride issue (which we see throughout the gospels). Jesus knew that it had to be dealt with in order for Peter to be who he was called to be.

    The devil had a legal right into Peter's life because of this sin, and he thought he would destroy Peter.
    But Jesus saw the end result. Peter's pride would be broken, and he would be able to become powerful in the kingdom. His pride was a danger to him (it is the same sin that caused satan to be thrown out of heaven.) God used what the devil intended for evil and turned it into good. He will do that.
    But His Word says that He does not test/tempt anyone with evil.

  2. #82
    As someone already pointed out, God does not test us with evil.
    I agree, Zeke. But why then do you think Jesus taught us to pray, "lead us not into temptation"?

  3. #83
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I agree, Zeke. But why then do you think Jesus taught us to pray, "lead us not into temptation"?
    Can you tell us what you think it means?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Can you tell us what you think it means?
    No. It's an honest question I've often pondered. My understanding is that God would never lead us into temptation in the first place. That's why I don't get why Jesus offered that as part of his "how to pray" lesson.

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  6. #85
    Resident Chocolate Monster Lista's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    No. It's an honest question I've often pondered. My understanding is that God would never lead us into temptation in the first place. That's why I don't get why Jesus offered that as part of his "how to pray" lesson.
    This is what I love about Bookie...he's curious, and not opposed to admitting that he doesn't have it all figured out. Thanks!

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  8. #86
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

    Our Father in heaven,
    Hallowed be Your name.
    10
    Your kingdom come.
    Your will be done
    On earth as it is in heaven.
    11
    Give us this day our daily bread.
    12
    And forgive us our debts,
    As we forgive our debtors.
    13
    And do not lead us into temptation,
    But deliver us from the evil one.
    For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.



    If we study the Lord's model prayer, it appears to be a prayer reminding us of the nature of the Father, His kingdom, and our responsibility to forgive as we have been forgiven. When you study the Psalms you find similar thoughts expressed in prayer. One of these is found in 1 Chronicles 16:7-36

    1 Chronicles 16:7-36 (NKJV)


    7 On that day David first delivered this psalm into the hand of Asaph and his brethren, to thank the Lord:

    8
    Oh, give thanks to the Lord!
    Call upon His name;
    Make known His deeds among the peoples!
    9
    Sing to Him, sing psalms to Him;
    Talk of all His wondrous works!
    10
    Glory in His holy name;
    Let the hearts of those rejoice who seek the Lord!
    11
    Seek the Lord and His strength;
    Seek His face evermore!
    12
    Remember His marvelous works which He has done,
    His wonders, and the judgments of His mouth,
    13
    O seed of Israel His servant,
    You children of Jacob, His chosen ones!

    14
    He is the Lord our God;
    His judgments are in all the earth.
    15
    Remember His covenant forever,
    The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
    16
    The covenant which He made with Abraham,
    And His oath to Isaac,
    17
    And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
    To Israel for an everlasting covenant,
    18
    Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
    As the allotment of your inheritance,”
    19
    When you were few in number,
    Indeed very few, and strangers in it.

    20
    When they went from one nation to another,
    And from one kingdom to another people,
    21
    He permitted no man to do them wrong;
    Yes, He rebuked kings for their sakes,
    22
    Saying, “Do not touch My anointed ones,
    And do My prophets no harm.”

    23
    Sing to the Lord, all the earth;
    Proclaim the good news of His salvation from day to day.
    24
    Declare His glory among the nations,
    His wonders among all peoples.

    25
    For the Lord is great and greatly to be praised;
    He is also to be feared above all gods.
    26
    For all the gods of the peoples are idols,
    But the Lord made the heavens.
    27
    Honor and majesty are before Him;
    Strength and gladness are in His place.

    28
    Give to the Lord, O families of the peoples,
    Give to the Lord glory and strength.
    29
    Give to the Lord the glory due His name;
    Bring an offering, and come before Him.
    Oh, worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness!
    30
    Tremble before Him, all the earth.
    The world also is firmly established,
    It shall not be moved.

    31
    Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad;
    And let them say among the nations, “The Lord reigns.”
    32
    Let the sea roar, and all its fullness;
    Let the field rejoice, and all that is in it.
    33
    Then the trees of the woods shall rejoice before the Lord,
    For He is coming to judge the earth.

    34
    Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
    For His mercy endures forever.
    35
    And say, “Save us, O God of our salvation;
    Gather us together, and deliver us from the Gentiles,
    To give thanks to Your holy name,
    To triumph in Your praise.”

    36
    Blessed be the Lord God of Israel
    From everlasting to everlasting!
    And all the people said, “Amen!” and praised the Lord.



    "Our Father, in heaven, hallowed be Your name---It would appear that even though the Jews considered God as their Father in a distant sense, the way Jesus related to Him and was teaching His disciples to relate to Him was a whole new concept for them. His name was still to be held in reverence, but He desires to have a much more personal relationship with us.

    "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."----Jesus came preaching that the kingdom was at hand. The will of the Father was being done right before their very eyes. The everlasting kingdom was being established on the earth.

    "Give us this day our daily bread"---Jesus was giving a reminder of Who our provider is.

    "And forgive us of our debts, as we forgive our debtors."---Jesus even elaborated on this a few verses later, that if we don't forgive those who have sinned against us, then neither will the Father forgive us of our sins.

    "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."---This is an acknowledgement that it is not God who tempts us, but the evil one, and God can also deliver us out of his hands.

    "For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever, Amen!"----Another reminder that this kingdom Jesus was preaching was the kingdom of God, it is a kingdom filled with the power of God and the glory of God, and it is the everlasting kingdom.

    That's my take on it.

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  10. #87
    I'm returning to this thread because of something I read in Dr. Brown's piece posted by Fuego in "Donald Trump, President of the United States by the Sovereign Intervention of God."

    The idea is that God has "sovereignly" raised up Trump for a purpose. But my question is HOW did God raise him up? He did so through the exercise of the free will of the voters! Exactly my point all along. God uses man's free will to work out His predetermined plan. This is a perfect example.

  11. #88
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I'm returning to this thread because of something I read in Dr. Brown's piece posted by Fuego in "Donald Trump, President of the United States by the Sovereign Intervention of God."

    The idea is that God has "sovereignly" raised up Trump for a purpose. But my question is HOW did God raise him up? He did so through the exercise of the free will of the voters! Exactly my point all along. God uses man's free will to work out His predetermined plan. This is a perfect example.

    R u rejoicing that judgement is coming

  12. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    R u rejoicing that judgement is coming
    That's a good question. One would think a Christian should rejoice when God's will prevails, even if that will is His judgment against an evil nation. However, we know that Abraham pleaded for God to spare Sodom, so in that light I'm still pleading for revival and that God will indeed spare America.

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