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Thread: Was Judas a believer?

  1. #11
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    The disciples were given authority by Jesus BEFORE His death and ressurection. See Matthew 10, Luke 9, and Luke 10. Especially note Luke 10:17-20 where Jesus tells all of them that their names are written in Heaven. Judas was not a "son of perdition" but later became one due to his walking away from Christ.

    Are you saying that God predestined Judas to be the "son of perdition" from the foundations of the world?
    First, it was my point that Jesus gave the disciples authority before His death and resurrection..not that it was given due to the salvation that took place after His resurrection. Judas was under the law and not 'saved' until after the resurrection, just as were none of the others.

    John 17:
    11"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.…

    This passage is clear, Judas role in the redemption of mankind was foretold in scripture. Jesus knew he would do what he did and Jesus knew he was a thief...
    Did Jesus KNOW before He chose him? Scripture does not say but we do know that Jesus knew very well he was the one that was prophesied about before He was betrayed.

    One can certainly argue predestination or one can argue that what God KNEW and what God orchestrated are not the same thing...regardless Judas was not SAVED as no one under the old covenant was SAVED...they were kept if they died in faith until the redemptive work was complete.

    It does appear that Judas gradually succumbed to sin until he was consumed by it. If anything he is a good example of trying to live with one foot in faith and one foot in the world...I personally believe God Knew all along what choices Judas would make when tempted, just as He knew all along what choices Pharoah would make when given a choice, and that the Holy Spirit led Jesus to pick him for that very purpose.

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  3. #12
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The local context of the verses from matthew 7 seems to be disciples that Jesus sent out with authority to heal the sick etc and who later demand entry into heaven based on that. People werent born again until after the resurrection so the situation was a bit different to now when it is impossible to operate in the anointing without being a born again believer, at least at the time when one was doing so.
    Exactly

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    First, it was my point that Jesus gave the disciples authority before His death and resurrection..not that it was given due to the salvation that took place after His resurrection. Judas was under the law and not 'saved' until after the resurrection, just as were none of the others.

    John 17:
    11"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.…

    This passage is clear, Judas role in the redemption of mankind was foretold in scripture. Jesus knew he would do what he did and Jesus knew he was a thief...
    Did Jesus KNOW before He chose him? Scripture does not say but we do know that Jesus knew very well he was the one that was prophesied about before He was betrayed.

    One can certainly argue predestination or one can argue that what God KNEW and what God orchestrated are not the same thing...regardless Judas was not SAVED as no one under the old covenant was SAVED...they were kept if they died in faith until the redemptive work was complete.

    It does appear that Judas gradually succumbed to sin until he was consumed by it. If anything he is a good example of trying to live with one foot in faith and one foot in the world...I personally believe God Knew all along what chices Judas would make when tempted, just as He knew all along what choices Pharoah would make when given a choice, and that the Holy Spirit led Jesus to pick him for that very purpose.
    Quest, seriously, your view of Scripture denigrates the character of God. You need to learn what the phrase, "so that the Scripture would be fulfilled" is actually saying. Well known Greek scholar and author A. T. Robertson writes the following in his commentary on Matthew:

    Then was fulfilled. We have here a different form of statement from the familiar “that it might be fulfilled.” A similar construction appears in 27:9 in connection with the death of Judas Iscariot. In both instances it is a quotation from Jeremiah. There seems to be an apparent shrinking from saying that either event was a part of the purpose of God. All that the present language need mean is that what was mentioned by the prophet Jeremiah has come true again in the case of Bethlehem. The author does not attribute any essential Messianic idea to Jeremiah's words. The quotation is apparently made from memory from the LXX (Jer. 38:15, LXX ; 31:15 Hebrew).

    Or as another man stated:

    And the words, “that the Scripture might be fulfilled,” seem to signify no more than that the words which David wrote concerning his enemies were fulfilled in Judas. It does not mean that his fall and destruction were decreed by God, and minutely foretold in Scripture, and that his fall and destruction were brought about agreeable to that decree for the purpose of fulfilling Scripture; but simply that his voluntary and wilful fall from the grace of God, and the holy ministry, fulfilled what the Psalmist spoke respecting his own adversaries. (Hen Silas, EXamination of Spurgeon's Calvinism)

    The truth is that God had nothing to do with Judas' crime. This was totally Satan's doing. Judas willingly received and acted on the thought that was given to him by the devil, and would therefore, have to pay the price. God neither predestined or it or prophesied anything in Scripture directly concerning Judas. But past discussions with you on these subjects let's me know I am wasting time even trying to help you understand the truth.
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  5. #14
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    There are several OT prophecies mentioned in the NT concerning Judas death but as every Wesley-Arminian (including most Pentecostal/charismatics) knows, foreknowledge does not imply predestination.
    Last edited by Colonel; 03-25-2016 at 04:22 PM.

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  7. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    There are several OT prophecies mentioned in the NT concerning Judas death but like every Wesley-Arminian (including most Pentecostal/charismatics) know, foreknowledge does not imply predeatination.
    And as Calvinists have rightly pointed out concerning the Arminian/Wesleyan position is that it is nothing more than a matter of semantics. The Calvinists at least have the boldness and more logical belief that God was the one who did the predestining.

    The Arminian/Wesleyan is much worse than Calvinism in several ways. One of the primary ways is that God seems to be predicting a future that He never created nor can He change it. If the future, such as Judas' destiny, already is and cannot be changed then that is "predestination" by the right definition of the word whether or not it was God who predestined it.

    If the future already exists and God did not create this future then someone outside of God is greater than Him because God can only helpless see a bad future for people He claims to love but cannot do anything about it. This God is powerless and helpless. So if Judas was known from before he was ever born that he would betray Christ and there was nothing he could do to change that destiny and it was all set in stone then you may as well throw free-will out the window. Arminians/Wesleyans have a false free-will. In this area I respect Calvinism much more because at least they believe that God is behind the events. Arminianism and Wesleyanism has a weak pathetic helpless deity who is unable to change a fixed future. He can only see and foretell it.

    Arminianism and Wesleyanism is an easy theology to hold to when a bad future for YOU is not written in Scripture and is unchangeable. Thankfully, as many Greek scholars have attested to (and I have shown two of them above though they have been ignored), the statement, "that Scripture might be fulfilled" does not mean that a specific person's future was set in stone. It only means that what occurred parallels a past Scriptural event.
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  8. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Im not interested in debating open theism again, this thread was originally about Judas being a believer or not. Doing a search for open theism will produce threads on that. But I find it amusing that you side with a Calvinist premise before you then depart from their camp and head for the opposite end of the spectrum, with their premise as a basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Quest, seriously, your view of Scripture denigrates the character of God. You need to learn what the phrase, "so that the Scripture would be fulfilled" is actually saying. Well known Greek scholar and author A. T. Robertson writes the following in his commentary on Matthew:

    Then was fulfilled. We have here a different form of statement from the familiar “that it might be fulfilled.” A similar construction appears in 27:9 in connection with the death of Judas Iscariot. In both instances it is a quotation from Jeremiah. There seems to be an apparent shrinking from saying that either event was a part of the purpose of God. All that the present language need mean is that what was mentioned by the prophet Jeremiah has come true again in the case of Bethlehem. The author does not attribute any essential Messianic idea to Jeremiah's words. The quotation is apparently made from memory from the LXX (Jer. 38:15, LXX ; 31:15 Hebrew).

    Or as another man stated:

    And the words, “that the Scripture might be fulfilled,” seem to signify no more than that the words which David wrote concerning his enemies were fulfilled in Judas. It does not mean that his fall and destruction were decreed by God, and minutely foretold in Scripture, and that his fall and destruction were brought about agreeable to that decree for the purpose of fulfilling Scripture; but simply that his voluntary and wilful fall from the grace of God, and the holy ministry, fulfilled what the Psalmist spoke respecting his own adversaries. (Hen Silas, EXamination of Spurgeon's Calvinism)

    The truth is that God had nothing to do with Judas' crime. This was totally Satan's doing. Judas willingly received and acted on the thought that was given to him by the devil, and would therefore, have to pay the price. God neither predestined or it or prophesied anything in Scripture directly concerning Judas. But past discussions with you on these subjects let's me know I am wasting time even trying to help you understand the truth.
    So prophesies in the OT were just suggestions and not prompted by God? Man just spoke ideas and God decided to 'fulfill them'?

    Interesting...you seem to only see two perspectives...God had nothing to do with it or GOD made it happen...I don't believe any aspect of prophesy is 'by chance' and I don't believe God forces it like moving pawns in a game...but I do believe He knows how we will respond to a given set of circumstances, therefore is able TO prophesy the outcome.

    Judas was never 'saved'. He was a disciple just as there were many disciples...and many fell away over time...so did he..

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    And as Calvinists have rightly pointed out concerning the Arminian/Wesleyan position is that it is nothing more than a matter of semantics. The Calvinists at least have the boldness and more logical belief that God was the one who did the predestining.

    The Arminian/Wesleyan is much worse than Calvinism in several ways. One of the primary ways is that God seems to be predicting a future that He never created nor can He change it. If the future, such as Judas' destiny, already is and cannot be changed then that is "predestination" by the right definition of the word whether or not it was God who predestined it.

    If the future already exists and God did not create this future then someone outside of God is greater than Him because God can only helpless see a bad future for people He claims to love but cannot do anything about it. This God is powerless and helpless. So if Judas was known from before he was ever born that he would betray Christ and there was nothing he could do to change that destiny and it was all set in stone then you may as well throw free-will out the window. Arminians/Wesleyans have a false free-will. In this area I respect Calvinism much more because at least they believe that God is behind the events. Arminianism and Wesleyanism has a weak pathetic helpless deity who is unable to change a fixed future. He can only see and foretell it.

    Arminianism and Wesleyanism is an easy theology to hold to when a bad future for YOU is not written in Scripture and is unchangeable. Thankfully, as many Greek scholars have attested to (and I have shown two of them above though they have been ignored), the statement, "that Scripture might be fulfilled" does not mean that a specific person's future was set in stone. It only means that what occurred parallels a past Scriptural event.
    How about simply considering that God knew who would betray Jesus, and Knew that he would not repent, and so wrote it as a prophesy in the book? God was not responsible for the evil that Judas did, He simply knew way before hand that it was going to happen and how it was going to happen, and who it was that would make it happen. And why would God want to change it when it fit into His plan of redemption? Judas betrayed Jesus of his own free will. He was not a robot created for such a time as this.

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  14. #19
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    How about simply considering that God knew who would betray Jesus, and Knew that he would not repent, and so wrote it as a prophesy in the book? God was not responsible for the evil that Judas did, He simply knew way before hand that it was going to happen and how it was going to happen, and who it was that would make it happen. And why would God want to change it when it fit into His plan of redemption? Judas betrayed Jesus of his own free will. He was not a robot created for such a time as this.
    How simple is that?

    Thank you!

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