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Thread: I'm far from a universalist, but....

  1. #21
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The concept of a wise judge being capable of making positive exceptions based on wisdom rather than law (including covenant law) is well known throughout history. King Solomon applied his wisdom as the highest judge and the Bible says that his wisdom was given to him by God.

    There is another possibility that is a bit different, the idea that God will give those who never heard the gospel in a meaningful way one last chance before he simply judges them according to their works. The idea I have of this is that it will be much harder to obey this call out of a sincere heart than it is when the gospel is presented through another human being. But not impossible. There is a hint of this, or it can be interpreted in that direction :

    1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
    18 And if the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
    19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good

    It is in the fact that he bothers to question how the ungodly will fare, at all.
    All this is in the realm of possibility and nothing can be concluded, we will simply have to wait and see.
    I don't believe he is literally questioning how they will fare...it is more like he is pointing out the very clear risk to believers who are straying.
    There is no scriptural presidence for this idea that God will give second chances in the afterlife...it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement..period.

    ARe you suggesting that Jesus merciful sacrifice was insufficient and God possibly had another way? Didn't Jesus settle that in the Garden when He prayed, Father is there any other way so this cup can pass from Me? The answer was obviously NO..

    This thread seems to be questioning God's mercy through Jesus as merely an alternative..who would give their Son to die for a sinner knowing there was another way?

    Eat drink and be merry because tomorrow we die and after that we can convert...well, I pray no lost people are reading this thread and thinking...I will wait until I die and then when I know for sure this stuff is true, I will choose Heaven.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Seriously? Exceptions? So when Jesus stated apart from HIM NO ONE comes to the Father there are exceptions?
    Wow...this thread is disturbing...
    If you read on you will see that that is not what I said.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    From the natural mind we have our preferences for the people we believe deserve to be saved

    Yet all our righteousness is as filthy rags and no one deserves salvation
    Redemption is by Faith in Christ alone

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  5. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I don't believe he is literally questioning how they will fare...it is more like he is pointing out the very clear risk to believers who are straying.
    He is pointing out that they will be saved through a lot of testing and tribulation. The question about the ungodly is quite possibly rhetorical but it is possible to interpret it otherwise. It is just a remote possibility and not worth treating as doctrine. At least not based on that particular verse and I haven't come across anything that is more indicative than that. But I could be wrong.

  6. #25
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    From the natural mind we have our preferences for the people we believe deserve to be saved

    Yet all our righteousness is as filthy rags and no one deserves salvation
    Redemption is by Faith in Christ alone
    I know what Bookie means by his post now since he explained it, so this is not necessarily addressing him but the extreme of this situation. Since Jesus' death and resurrection, all have been judged by the 'standard' of this sacrifice and whether one has received Him by faith or not. And God would put aside all the pain and suffering Jesus endured [and even suffering in hell for us :) ] to set aside that sacrifice and all who have made it to heaven because of their faith in Him, just because an unbeliever defended some Christians? Obviously I'm not God and don't have his wisdom and perspective, but I just don't see it.

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  8. #26
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I know what Bookie means by his post now since he explained it, so this is not necessarily addressing him but the extreme of this situation. Since Jesus' death and resurrection, all have been judged by the 'standard' of this sacrifice and whether one has received Him by faith or not. And God would put aside all the pain and suffering Jesus endured [and even suffering in hell for us :) ] to set aside that sacrifice and all who have made it to heaven because of their faith in Him, just because an unbeliever defended some Christians? Obviously I'm not God and don't have his wisdom and perspective, but I just don't see it.
    Like Cardinal TT said, faith in Christ is the only way. So the real question is if God will make any exceptions to the rule that one doesn't get a chance to embrace faith some time after death. Technically this applied to the OT saints who had the gospel preached to them by Jesus himself in Hades. They also had to accept him and his sacrifice by faith, their generic faith in God didn't equal faith in the risen Christ until after the fact.

  9. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Bookman, I ill probably not post again after making this statement...

    What you are proposing here is to literally stand in judgment of God. God will not ask US to determine someone's worthiness or not because we are not HIM. He has taken the greatest and ONLY step toward sinful man, His Son which provided the Holy Spirit to come and point to HIM for salvation.

    I have read discussions where God is judged as unmerciful BECAUSE He made the path so narrow...that SEEMS to be the core of this idea...that God is unmerciful if He does not let this kind and merciful man into Heaven...dangerous place to go, IMHO
    I think you too must have missed my explanation that I KNOW all that. As I said, I'm admittedly acting in my [flawed] humanity. I do not believe I'm in the wrong, though, in considering this man a hero and hoping that he responded to the gospel in the month before he passed away.

  10. #28
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I think you too must have missed my explanation that I KNOW all that. As I said, I'm admittedly acting in my [flawed] humanity. I do not believe I'm in the wrong, though, in considering this man a hero and hoping that he responded to the gospel in the month before he passed away.
    Yes, I responded when I first started reading rather than read all the way through...I hope he did too...the two saddest thing I know is really really good people going to Hell...the second is people in this life living in bondage and torment when it's so unnecessary...

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