Thread: Is Tithing a New Testament Command? Michael Brown

Originally Posted by BAP

Lol , there are a million and one things that the Jerusalem Council didn't address. They were pretty specific in their deliberations and conclusions. Nonetheless you still continue to argue against the tithe based on the inaccurate premise that it Originated with the Law of Moses when I have shown repeatedly that it it was only incorporated into Mosaic law and has existed from the beginning of time .

The NT scriptures are clear about the abrogation or rather the alteration of the Jewish fulfillments of the sabbath and circumcision in the NT . Question is where in the NT is the tithe abrogated ?

And where is it handed down to the NT church? So here we stand brother, sombreros in hand, another stand off. lol!!!


So, the question I would have for pro-tithing advocates would be; "Are you doing what was prescribed with your tithes?" (See the video, and they are discussing what scripture instructed the Jews to do with their tithes.)

So, how many times after the death of Jesus is tithing taught in the NT? (Not mentioned, actually being taught).

Does Paul write anything to the churches about giving?

Did the writer of Hebrews list it as one of the elementary principles of Christ in Hebrews chapter 6?

Did the letter to the gentiles from the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 include ANY mention of the tithe?

"23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell."

Originally Posted by BAP

Chief:
looks like we are going around in circles at this Juncture .

I have explained that something doesn't need to be explicitly taught and I have cited Water Baptism and Fasting as examples of widely accepted doctrines that are not explicitly taught in the epistles.

Ultimately we learn by Revelation which can be expressed via explicit teaching, inference and even Patterns . As I said earlier the letter kills and the spirit giveth life .

Even explicit teachings need to be properly discerned and divided otherwise we could end up misreading them when instructions are stripped of cultural and historical context. Examples would include prohibitions on Female Preachers and Head Coverings in Church and so on and so forth

Water baptism is a clear teaching in the NT. First, Jesus commanded it. Second, We see it clearly being preached in Acts, starting with Chapter 2. Thirdly, Paul talks about it quite extensively to the Romans.

Fasting is also clearly shown in the NT. Jesus said; "When you fast....." (not "IF" you fast). Peter was fasting when Cornelius sent for him in Acts 10. A whole group of disciples were fasting in Acts 13 and again in Acts 14. Paul teaches on fasting in 1 Corinthans chapter 7. In 2 Corinthians 6 he also talks about fasting.

Now compare that with the doctrine of tithing. Jesus didn't instruct His disciples to tithe after the resurrection, there is no evidence of any of them tithing in the book of Acts. And the only place it is written about is in Hebrews chapter 7 and that is not teaching on the tithe, but on the ministry of Christ Jesus above every earthly ministry.


And even though we are going around in circles, it has been a great discussion.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

Water baptism is a clear teaching in the NT. First, Jesus commanded it. Second, We see it clearly being preached in Acts, starting with Chapter 2. Thirdly, Paul talks about it quite extensively to the Romans.

Fasting is also clearly shown in the NT. Jesus said; "When you fast....." (not "IF" you fast). Peter was fasting when Cornelius sent for him in Acts 10. A whole group of disciples were fasting in Acts 13 and again in Acts 14. Paul teaches on fasting in 1 Corinthans chapter 7. In 2 Corinthians 6 he also talks about fasting.

Now compare that with the doctrine of tithing. Jesus didn't instruct His disciples to tithe after the resurrection, there is no evidence of any of them tithing in the book of Acts. And the only place it is written about is in Hebrews chapter 7 and that is not teaching on the tithe, but on the ministry of Christ Jesus above every earthly ministry.


And even though we are going around in circles, it has been a great discussion.

-- Why do you keep moving The Goalpost My brother .. I said Epistles You Changed the scope to the NT .. And no Paul doesnt talk about Fasting in 1 Corinthians Chapter 7 or 2 corinthians 6 that's Why most Translations don't have it in there ..

The KJV does hence the reason you may have that impression but the KJV translators do have a reputation for inserting biases into scriptures ..

In 2 Corinthians 6 They changed the word Hunger into Fasting

3 We put no obstacle in any one's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry, 4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: through great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, 5 beatings, imprisonments, tumults, labors, watching, hunger; 6 by purity, knowledge, forbearance, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love, 7 truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left; 8 in honor and dishonor, in ill repute and good repute. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;

And in 1 Corinthians 7 they straight up added a word that wasn't there

5 Do not deprive each other [of marital rights], except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, so that you may devote yourselves [unhindered] to prayer, but come together again so that Satan will not tempt you [to sin] because of your lack of self-control. --amplified Version

5 Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control - RSV

I am not going to even bother on water baptism because it simply isn't true that Paul talked about water Baptism in Romans . He talked about other Baptisms but not Water Baptism

You said

Now compare that with the doctrine of tithing. Jesus didn't instruct His disciples to tithe after the resurrection, there is no evidence of any of them tithing in the book of Acts. And the only place it is written about is in Hebrews chapter 7 and that is not teaching on the tithe, but on the ministry of Christ Jesus above every earthly ministry.

To go by the logic you made here .. I could argue that even the fasting's that you claim were mentioned were likewise inserted in the middle of other topics like Marital Duties and Servanthood so what gives ?

Like I said we learn by inference. The Priestly Ministry of Christ Jesus above every earthy ministry as you claim does not exist in the abstract . Having a priestly ministry without Tithes is like having a King without Tribute Paying Subjects . Isn't it interesting that the Tithe is what is used to demarcate or characterize the very ministry you speak of in the book of Hebrews ?
..
Yes its been a great discussion

Cheers

How to make sure of NT doctrine being sound:


1. IF Jesus taught His disciples on said subject, what did He teach/command them?
2. HOW did the Apostles/Disciples respond to the subject in the book of Acts?
3. WHAT did the Apostles/Disciples write to the churches on the subject?



That has been where I stand for a very long time. No moving of the goal posts, brother.

Baptism/IMMERSION-
1. Jesus commanded it in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19.
2. His command was obeyed in Acts 2, and Paul was baptized in Acts 9:18. In Acts 8 Philip baptized many in Samaria, and then the Ethiopian in the desert (which passage also proves that it was part of preaching Jesus to him). In Acts 10 Peter commands that Cornelius and his household be baptized/immersed in water. In Acts 19 Paul baptizes/immerses a dozen of John's disciples into Christ. Lydia was baptized/immersed in Acts 16, and so was the Jailer and his household.

3. In Romans 6:1-4 Paul is definitely teaching about being baptized/immersed. 1 Corinthians chapter 1 clearly talks about baptism/immersion. In Galatians 3:27 Paul drives home the fact that as many as have been baptized/immersed into Christ have put on Christ.

This clearly and powerfully shows water baptism/immersion as being a NT church doctrine. Hebrews 6 also backs up the fact that it was considered a basic/elementary doctrine of Christ.

There is no getting away from water baptism as a sound NT doctrine.

Now, please show me even half that much evidence on the doctrine of tithing in the NT church. If you can come up with it, you may even be able to persuade me to change my mind. (I won't argue with such a clear path of biblical evidence.)

The apostle Paul did not dictate to the believers the amount of the contribution they should give. He did not try and lay a "guilt trip" on them or try to manipulate them into giving. He simply told them to give whatever amount they were willing to give. He told them, "God loves a cheerful giver."
Since this thread is on tithing, and if you do tithe, you do not give them to a church, a denomination, a ministry, or to any man, you give them to God. Tithers should give their tithe wisely, that is, the tithe should be sown into a church or ministry that produces kingdom results. If in question as to where my tithe and offerings should go, we must seek God for ourselves in order to know where He would have us give, and then be obedient and faithful with our giving.

With all that said, Paul drew parallels throughout the seventh chapter of Hebrews (I believe he is the writer 13:23) between Melchizedek and Christ, and the earthly priesthood and the heavenly priesthood of Christ. I believe he was saying that here on earth men who eventually die receives tithes, but there...in heaven..."is One who receives them" "...of whom it is witnessed that he liveth" (7:8). Paul was not referring to Melchizedek, but to Christ. There is only One High Priest Who lives forever...Jesus Christ. "...but He, on the other hand, because He abides forever, holds His priesthood permanently(7:24). "...He always lives to make intercession for us (7:25). Christ has ascended into heaven where He now stands before God on our behalf, as our High Priest (9:24). So, in my humble opinion, it could be said, if you are a N.T. tither, Christ, who is our Great High Priest, will receive it and present it to the Father on your behalf. Then, you will be able to recognize that as you give your tithe, you are entering into relationship with God in which you acknowledge and honor Him as "El Elyon"...the Most High God, Creator and Possessor of heaven and earth. He is, in turn, acknowledging you as one of His children, and is fulfilling His promises of blessing and prosperity in you life.