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Thread: Bursting the bubble

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The original contention was about whether or not you and I are unrighteous, just like Rory Alec is unrighteous.

    Paul's way of discussing identities was to term himself crucified with Christ and then Christ was living in him (Gal 2:20)

    If Paul was crucified with Christ then Paul was unrighteous. He was also righteous in Christ on account of Christ living in him. This is Biblical terminology but it isn't a particularly popular way of seeing things, I know that.

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  3. #22
    You lost me with the above

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    You lost me with the above
    What we usually do is to connect our identity to who we are "in Christ Jesus" and deem the old stuff to be someone else.

    Paul refused to do that, at least that is what he did in Gal 2:20. He still saw himself as the one he was according to the flesh and the new man as "Christ living in him".

    His reasoning was probably that once the process of transformation had been completed, then Paul would be completely and utterly done away with and "Christ living in him" would be his new identity, equalling a complete transformation into the likeness of Christ, a seed produced by the kernel that was lain in the ground.

    This is radical but it is exactly what he does.

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  7. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I once saw a vision that was according to the mentioned kind of thinking. I saw an actively gay man, representative of someone who was thoroughly sinful by identity. Somehow the gospel reached his heart and he quit caring about anything else than that. Now notice that this is a bit allegorical. He started walking one step at a time in an other direction than previously, his appearance was still completely gay makeup and all but he was walking in a different direction as if there was someone else or someone new inside who was doing the walking. As he did this, the one inside became stronger and the makeup fell off and after a while he was completely transformed as if the one inside had taken completely over. It doesn't mean that he was living in sin until his appearance changed, what it meant is that though he was walking in no other direction than the correct one, his old man still had to be put off so that he could be the new man and nothing else. In a sense he had been taken over by the new man that had come inside of him and in the end the old one was simply gone. And that is exactly what he wanted.

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  9. #25
    This is something (and I realize this has been discussed before, but I may have missed something along the way)

    has he "lost his salvation" seemingly because he decided to go "all in" with this adultery and left his marriage?

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  11. #26
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaithfulOne View Post
    This is something (and I realize this has been discussed before, but I may have missed something along the way)

    has he "lost his salvation" seemingly because he decided to go "all in" with this adultery and left his marriage?
    That is what we disagree on somewhat. That is, none of us believe in OSAS so anything is possible but I'd say he hasn't necessarily but very possibly. The longer he sticks with it the more likely it is that he does lose salvation. In my book that implies shipwrecking faith, the Holy Spirit departing and the rest is then pretenses and/or delusion. If he doesn't simply reject the faith openly, that is. Which is what many people do after they have lived in sin for a while.

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  13. #27
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    As Colonel said, probably most of us are not OSAS but there does seem to be some difference in how and when one loses their salvation. VW posted something on the old forum that seemed to be saying that when someone sins they have lost their salvation...there are some passages that seem to say that but then there are others that are strong toward our security. This is why, I believe, the OSAS camp and the ones who believe you can lose your salvation can't find much common ground..

    For ME there is only one sin that can cause me, a Christian, to not go to Heaven...that is to allow sin to so harden my heart that I willfully become so dark that I willfully reject Him..reprobate..unable to receive conviction any longer.

    Jesus is our righteousness and any of our own is as filthy rags so even as long term Christians who 'live right' and 'practice righteousness' are only going because of HIS righteousness so mine, in any amount of limitation will not get me in or keep me out..

    You are saved by grace through faith...once faith in that provision is snuffed out, IMHO the Spirit will depart.

    OSAS does not believe that last statement is even possible for a born again person...I believe it is and that it is the only answer that reconciles all the seeming 'opposing' passages.

    To believe, say Rory, has become lost as Colonel stated would mean the Spirit has left him and if he repents does the Spirit return? In and out???

    If I lie does He leave, and return when I repent or only leave when I do certain really bad sins? What are they?

    It seems to me this topic goes the way of drinking strong drink...it's taught in one extreme or another by leaders to offset potential problems..

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  15. #28
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Some fall because they did not properly and wisely guard their heart...may have not prayed like they should...became a little dishonest about the strength of their relationship with the Lord...find they were walking in their own strength and calling it 'faith'...

    While it may take a while to turn that around, especially when potentially millions are now glaring at you with condemnation..you are naked and on display..

    We just need to pray for our brother and sister...

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  17. #29
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quest, it seems to me that you have missed the allegation that a believer can (continue to) have genuine faith, have the Holy Spirit and still not be saved if he at the same time lives in sin. Victoryword has been very clear about that. In covenant terms it would make much more sense if living in sin were seen as breaking the terms and therefore the benefits of the covenant are retracted, meaning faith (which was given by God to be employed), the Holy Spirit and therefore salvation itself are retracted. Not that I believe that it works that way but that would make more sense.

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  19. #30
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    As Colonel said, probably most of us are not OSAS but there does seem to be some difference in how and when one loses their salvation. VW posted something on the old forum that seemed to be saying that when someone sins they have lost their salvation...there are some passages that seem to say that but then there are others that are strong toward our security. This is why, I believe, the OSAS camp and the ones who believe you can lose your salvation can't find much common ground..
    In my opinion, it is much easier to disprove OSAS than it is to disprove the allegation that one can lose salvation except by shipwrecking faith.

    If we turn the tables a bit, then it is also much easier to prove that one can lose salvation by shipwrecking faith than it is to try to prove at the same time that one can also lose salvation except by shipwrecking faith.

    I have in the past debated all sides and probably every proof text known to mankind. I have even debated both the other sides from that position in the middle, at the same time. "Loss of salvation through sinning" is a bit like Calvinism, just situated opposite to it - in that there is an enormous amount of scripture that could be seen as relevant and some of the proponents have such thick glasses that they see their doctrine on every single page of the Bible. It's like every half negative statement about anything is seen as declaring unconditional election or loss of salvation, to some people. But even in the absence of the really thick glassed proponents, both topics can be difficult.

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