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Thread: Calvinist Tactics Exposed

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    From one of my old dead guys:

    "It is to be lamented that the term irresistible grace has ever been used, since it suggests the idea of a mechanical and coercive influence upon an unwilling subject, while, in truth, it is the transcendent act of the infinite Creator, making the creature spontaneously willing." A.A. Hodge (1823-1886)
    He tones it down but at the same time it departs slightly from what is logical. Calvinism light is more popular today than it was in the days of Calvin.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    He tones it down but at the same time it departs slightly from what is logical.
    Calvinism appeals to the intellectual Christian searching for all the answers in a neat little box. LionHeart (ref). Wondering if there is a slight differing of opinion here. Doesn't matter, to be expected actually, even hoped for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Calvinism light is more popular today than it was in the days of Calvin.
    "Calvinism" as those who oppose reformed theology like to call it, wasn't clearly defined till 50 years after John Calvin's death.

  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    From one of my old dead guys:

    "It is to be lamented that the term irresistible grace has ever been used, since it suggests the idea of a mechanical and coercive influence upon an unwilling subject, while, in truth, it is the transcendent act of the infinite Creator, making the creature spontaneously willing." A.A. Hodge (1823-1886)
    I think that's mentioned on the video too. I wonder if God did that intentionally? It's like the headline in my local (left leaning) paper. Under World news we see the words "Deadly Protests Biden says President 'can't stop the violence because for years he's fomented it'. Then in big letters we see "Trump defends teen who shot two men".

    People who have an opinion on the subject will read those words through their existing view. How many read down as far as "That was an interesting situation, you saw the same tape as I saw, and he was trying to get away from them, I guess, it looks like. And he fell, and then they very violently attacked him."?

    How many simply say "I've got a free will, I can choose for myself, if I don't then I'm just a robot" instead of reading what's behind the headline, recognising that they were dead in sin (Eph 2:1); did not seek God (Romans 3:11); and couldn't even see the kingdom of heaven till they were born again (John 3:3)?

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    No wonder some Calvinists skip that point and become 4-point Calvinists. Then there's the detail that most Calvinists skip and which follows logically from the whole system, that the non-elect have been chosen specifically for eternal damnation, apart from anything that they have done, good or bad.
    We had lunch out today. We chose one place to eat. Did we reject the rest?
    There were lots of things on the menu. I chose one. Did I reject the rest?

    As you disagree with reformed theology Colonel you have to know that the Bible teaches "And not only this (that Abraham's descends would be named through Isaac because he was the child of promise), but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls"

    You should also know about the state of man, that "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick"; "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander"; and that "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand", and that because of that "all have sinned" and so deserve hell.

    If two people are deservedly going to hell and God choses to save one how can we say that other was "chosen specifically for eternal damnation"? No, he was going to hell as he deserved and he was not chosen for salvation, but that's the choosers choice is it not?


    From the video I posted, spoken by Michael Horton. Worth a listen Colonel:

    (at 31:00 or there abouts in the video) Irresistible Grace is a horrible phrase ... these are terrible terms, irresistible grace "the reformed churches detest with their whole soul the belief that God is as active in reprobation as he is in election for all he has to do is leave the reprobate. He passes them over. He isn't active in reprobating people as he is in election he decides to pass over those who he hasn't chosen in his son. It is not irresistible grace in the sense of being coerced ... all the confessions ... say that it is not cohesion there is no cohesion involved contrary it is quiet liberating freeing us from our bondage to sin so that we will embrace Christ.

    Here's a quote from a great confession "the new birth is produced by the holy spirit amending our will, not forcing it, but also not just making it possible but amending our will and actually turning it from unbelief to faith.
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 09-02-2020 at 02:48 AM. Reason: Added below the line

  6. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Calvinism is a Doctrine of errors. In the video of the debate, Horton says salvation (ca. 35) is not a decision on our part but God makes the decision. Wrong! We of our own free will decide to follow Him. It is called Repentance.
    Not sure how to interpret "ca .35" Nikos so I couldn't find where that was spoken.

    What I did notice is that all the way through he used Scripture to justify what he was saying. Are you able to expand on what you've said including explaining why his Scriptural understanding was wrong?

  7. #26
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    FFO
    Your quote above that God isn't active in passing over the reprobate is contrary to what Calvinists have promoted in the past and I'm quite certain you have also promoted that view.

    Are you now saying this is the standard Reformed position?

    When babies go to hell is God active or not in casting them there?

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  9. #27
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    FFO
    Your quote above that God isn't active in passing over the reprobate is contrary to what Calvinists have promoted in the past and I'm quite certain you have also promoted that view.

    Are you now saying this is the standard Reformed position?

    When babies go to hell is God active or not in casting them there?
    From the assertion that God predestined all things, it follows logically that He has predestined the existence of the reprobate, all his sins, his either not hearing of the gospel or his not responding to it, his death in this state and his eternity in hell.

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  11. #28
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    From the assertion that God predestined all things, it follows logically that He has predestined the existence of the reprobate, all his sins, his either not hearing of the gospel or his not responding to it, his death in this state and his eternity in hell.
    Yes that is clear if you take the Reformed position

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  13. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    FFO
    Your quote above that God isn't active in passing over the reprobate is contrary to what Calvinists have promoted in the past and I'm quite certain you have also promoted that view.

    Are you now saying this is the standard Reformed position?
    TT, as you listened to the video (you understand that, yes) somewhere between 25m and 35m I think, you would have heard Michael Horton speak of how, when the Church got together to nut out what they actually believed, that election was a minor part of things and scope was given for groups to modify how they saw things. There are a lot more important things in Reformed Theology, but election is always raised as an issue by the non-reformed as it clashes with what they've been taught, that there's a spark of goodness in them and that they can decide for or against God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    When babies go to hell is God active or not in casting them there?
    That is an entirely different question and you should be aware of that.

    In Rev 20 we read "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire". So yes, God has anyone whose "name (is) not found written in the book of life" cast into hell so so you could say that he is active in it. But why are they thrown in? Because they are reprobate and God has not chosen to save them. You'd only ask that question if you'd been influenced by Pelagius or Arminius or in later times Wesley into believing that man is good till he chooses to be bad. This is not so.

  14. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    From the assertion that God predestined all things, it follows logically that He has predestined the existence of the reprobate, all his sins, his either not hearing of the gospel or his not responding to it, his death in this state and his eternity in hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Yes that is clear if you take the Reformed position
    Not at all. The reformed positions is that "God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

    On children we read "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."

    But that is just two sentences out of 100's that summarise the Reformed understanding of God. Why not discuss something else?

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