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Thread: Calvinist Tactics Exposed

  1. #201
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I agree with some of the things you wrote but the above seems contradictory unless you explain it further

    God doesn't give us salvation (save us first) so we have a desire for Christ and God doesn't awaken our soul (save us) before we are drawn to Christ.
    The salvation/awakening and desire is in the wrong order

    If you look at the salvation of Paul he heard the gospel previously on many occasions. He heard Stephen preach the gospel and was one of those who resisted the gospel and agreed to the stoning.
    Jesus said to him 'It is hard for you to kick against the goads' - this means the Holy Spirit was continuously convicting Paul and he was using his free will to resist and reject the conviction.

    Paul knew and understood the gospel but he hardened his heart and rejected it. God did a sovereign act of forcefully confronting Paul. He had no desire nor was he awakened as a baby with no consciousness of what happened. Paul was confronted with the truth and he had to choose Christ.

    Most believers don't have what Paul had but they hear the gospel and through the gospel God convicts them and begins to work on their heart. This work can take many forms and one of the forms is that a 'desire' for Christ can form and Christ becomes appealing to the sinner.

    This happened in my heart. I heard the gospel and over time I began to have a longing and desire for Christ. I was becoming more interested in God and spiritual matters BUT I was still not saved/born again.

    I would one minute have a desire for Jesus and the next minute want to go out and sin my head off because I knew I still wanted my sins more than God.
    I was doing what Paul did...I was rejecting the conviction because I loved my sins.

    As time progressed the conviction got stronger and all my arguments for not wanting to be a christian began to fade. I knew I had to eventually choose. I was fully aware I had to choose Jesus and reject the world. I was not a baby with no sense of what was going on I was fully aware of what was happening it was very real to me.

    Not everyone has the full comprehension I had before being Born Again but that was the way God took me. I lived with a desire for Christ as well as loving sins for many months but I rejected the conviction.

    I KNEW I had to make a choice. I still remember the exact day when I finally chose Jesus and what occurred.
    Jesus met with me powerfully after I decided to accept him as my saviour. I sensed his presence and heard his voice. I was saved and Born Again
    Thanks TT for your input and testimony.

    In 1972 at the age of 16 I was a long haired hippy, a druggie, and a juvenile delinquent on probation.
    My Probation officer was a Christian and sent me to a weekend campout with a group of early 70's hippy Jesus freaks who were like from the early Chuck Smith era.
    They told me how Jesus had changed their life and filled them with His peace and love. They said they didn't use drugs anymore because there was no high like Jesus.
    That night around the camp fire there was about of 20 of us. They were playing guitars and singing praise songs to God.
    I remember trying to sing with them because I was enjoying the music, when all the sudden I was no longer around that camp fire.
    I was in this most glorious bright light a thousand times brighter than the sun. There were like waves of intense love that were going through my entire being.
    I did not know where I was at, but I figured I must have been in the presence of God because one thing I did know is that I was not at that campfire in those woods.
    I also know that the peace and love I was engulfed in was like nothing I ever experienced on earth. I also knew that I never wanted to leave that place.
    I don't know how long I was there but I felt myself descending. I felt myself slip back into my body just as you would slide your foot into a dress shoe.
    I was shouting to the Jesus freaks that I had just been in the love and bright light of God and I just came back.
    They were all hugging me saying Jesus revealed Himself to you in mighty and powerful way. I gave my heart to the Lord as they laid their hands on me and prayed over Me.
    The Father revealed Himself to me and drew me to His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ that night. I gave my life to Him after that experience around that campfire 48 years ago.
    There were some set-backs, challenges, and failures in the years a head, but I have had a solid and sure foundation in Christ for the last 36 years. Maybe I didn't get the proper theology exactly correct in my post TT, but I did my best to address Scripture as a layperson. Of coarse as I said before in this forum, I am always open for correction and am still learning Scriptural truth. I don't know a lot of stuff, but I am learning some stuff from a biblical perspective. Blessings to you dear brother in Christ. M.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  3. #202
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Thanks Smitty....wonderful testimony and most importantly you are still loving and following God

    Many have had similar type experiences like yourself and God meets people where they are at.
    They receive a revelation and their salvation seemingly occurs simultaneously but there was faith working already in their heart.

    I know a person who became a minister who when he heard the gospel replied simply to the christian..."I Believe" and instantly Jesus appeared in front of him as clearly as seeing a human. He knew then he was born again.

    He heard the Word, believed in his heart with faith and simply spoke (confessed) I believe. He was saved immediately and Jesus at the same time appeared to him to confirm his salvation.

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  5. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    OZ, to boil it all down to the simplest understanding just look at the ark. The ark was a type of the Christ. Those who were hidden safely in the ark were not destroyed. All others were. No one forced Noah or any of his family members to get onto the ark. They CHOSE to get in, and then God closed the door.
    From Genesis 6-7: The Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. ...

    Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

    13 Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. 14 Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch. 15 This is how you shall make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 You shall make a window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks. 17 Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the arkyou and your sons and your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. 21 As for you, take for yourself some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them." 22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.


    Then the Lord said to Noah, "Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time. 2 You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; 3 also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made." 5 Noah did according to all that the Lord had commanded him.

    Here's my understanding from reading Gen 6-7.


    1. God decided to wipe out man but God favoured Noah
    2. God said to Noah. He didn't ask!! Later we read that He "commanded"
    3. God's directions to Noah were that "you shall" (not "would you like to ..." or "what about if you ...")
    4. After giving His directions He told Noah that He was making a covenant with him. Again He never asked, he told.
    5. God declares up front who's going in the ark, Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. Shem was around 25 at the time that Noah was told to build the ark and 100 at the time of the flood. Were there grandkids? There was lots of time. If there were they weren't included in the deal as they never came.
    6. Twice we read Moses did according to all that God commanded.


    There's nothing I read there Ezekiel about God giving Noah a choice. God decided to save Noah and his family and that is what He did. He didn't put out a general call asking who wanted to be saved; who wanted to enter into a covenant with Him. He didn't have a "Plan B" with someone else building an ark as well in case Noah decided to give up or fell off the top and hurt himself. What I read is God commanded and Noah obeyed, cf Luke 7 and the centurion who says "For I also am a man placed under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."

  6. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I suppose God could fall in love with "elect" persons and favor those and disregard the others. But he cannot set himself up as righteous judge of all mankind and then treat people according to different standards, forcefully regenerating one sinner and not the other, sending one sinner to hell and not the other. An application of justice requires equality as its fundament, as the Bible itself teaches about human beings but also about God.
    "An application of justice requires equality as its fundament". And is God unjust? No (Rom 9:14).

    But people aren't saved because of justice Colonel, they're saved because God is merciful.

    If God was only just you would go to hell as you deserve.

    Fortunately for you we are saved by grace, and "(w)hen the word grace is used in conjunction with God it refers to God choosing to bestow unmerited favour, benevolence, and blessing upon us, rather than pour His wrath on us as we deserve for our sin." (Grace Vs Mercy Vs Justice Vs Law: (Differences, Meanings, Scriptures))

  7. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Most believers don't have what Paul had but they hear the gospel and through the gospel God convicts them and begins to work on their heart. This work can take many forms and one of the forms is that a 'desire' for Christ can form and Christ becomes appealing to the sinner.

    This happened in my heart. I heard the gospel and over time I began to have a longing and desire for Christ. I was becoming more interested in God and spiritual matters BUT I was still not saved/born again.
    What did Jesus tells us? "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44). Our experiences are verified by Scripture, they do not interpret Scripture.

  8. #206
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    What did Jesus tells us? "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44). Our experiences are verified by Scripture, they do not interpret Scripture.
    That scripture verifies my conversion as well as millions of others...Calvinists don't understand what that means so turn to eisegesis

    I know what it means and I don't need John Calvin to tell me what to believe

  9. #207
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    From Genesis 6-7: The Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. ...

    Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

    13 Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. 14 Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch. 15 This is how you shall make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 You shall make a window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks. 17 Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the arkyou and your sons and your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. 21 As for you, take for yourself some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them." 22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.


    Then the Lord said to Noah, "Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time. 2 You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; 3 also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made." 5 Noah did according to all that the Lord had commanded him.

    Here's my understanding from reading Gen 6-7.
    [*]God decided to wipe out man but God favoured Noah

    @@@The reason why was his righteousness. 7:1 which you quoted just above states that plainly.

    [*]God said to Noah. He didn't ask!! Later we read that He "commanded"

    @@@God commands people to repent, he doesn't ask. Then they choose to either obey or disobey. This has always worked the same way.

    [*]God's directions to Noah were that "you shall" (not "would you like to ..." or "what about if you ...") [*]After giving His directions He told Noah that He was making a covenant with him. Again He never asked, he told.[*]God declares up front who's going in the ark, Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. Shem was around 25 at the time that Noah was told to build the ark and 100 at the time of the flood. Were there grandkids? There was lots of time. If there were they weren't included in the deal as they never came.

    @@@Their kids are mentioned here :

    Gen 10:1 Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.

    If they had had sons before the flood then they would have been mentioned in the genealogy.


    [*]Twice we read Moses did according to all that God commanded.

    There's nothing I read there Ezekiel about God giving Noah a choice. God decided to save Noah and his family and that is what He did. He didn't put out a general call asking who wanted to be saved; who wanted to enter into a covenant with Him. He didn't have a "Plan B" with someone else building an ark as well in case Noah decided to give up or fell off the top and hurt himself. What I read is God commanded and Noah obeyed, cf Luke 7 and the centurion who says "For I also am a man placed under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."

    @@@Noah chose to obey, those he preached the message to chose to disobey :

    2 Peter 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

    You just presented an excellent example of a Calvinist distortion.
    .

  10. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Perhaps, to you, my comments don't say anything. But do the scriptures say anything? I think so.

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
    1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    The Scripture is clear. I will leave you with the Word.
    Yep Scripture is clear.

    For my birthday we went on a balloon ride. What they do is work backwards. They know where they want to land and based on the winds they then decide where to start from. We can't do this with Scripture. We can't look for a beginning based on where we want to end.

    20+ years ago, prior to the 2000 Olympics, my son was in Little Athletics. Now if you're good locally you may go to regional then zone then state (or something like that, it doesn't matter). We went to watch the state trials where people tried to qualify for the Australian squad. If they got in the squad they may get in the team. If they got through the heats they may get to the finals. If they win the finals they get a gold medal. Technically, an Olympic medal is awarded to successful competitors at one of the Olympic Games. We watch the finals on TV and cheer if our guy wins. We totally ignore the fact that hardly anyone gets to compete. Sure anyone who wins gets a medal, but most people will never be able to compete so have no change whatsoever of getting one.

    What's that got to do with this discussion? Well as you said the Scripture is clear. However some don't like the ending that brings so try work backwards.

    One of the people who didn't like the ending was Pelagius who was eventually condemned as a heretic by the bishop of Rome in 417 and 418 and by the Council of Ephesus in 431. Amongst other things Pelagius believed that "Adam was not created holy. He was not constitutionally inclined either toward good or evil" and that "Because he was a creature, Adam's body was mortal. That is to say, it was Adam's destiny to die physically whether or not he ever sinned". He also said "that the fall of Adam had any adverse influence on the will of man". Augustine brought correction.

    What we then get is Semi-Pelagianism which is the theological position midway between Pelagianism and the teachings of Augustine. It's the old "look at how balanced we are" argument. This critical dispute, and what is important here, has to do with the extent to which the natural man is responsible for his or her own regeneration (the new birth), i.e. whether the work of God in regeneration monergistic (God alone) or synergistic (a cooperation of man and God)? The Council of Orange in 529AD settled this Nikos by condemning the Semi-Pelagian doctrine that fallen creatures, although sinful, have an island of righteousness which made them morally competent enough to contribute toward their salvation by taking hold of the offer of the grace of God through an act of their unregenerate natural will. Orange upheld Augustine's view that the will is evil by corruption of nature and becomes good only by a correction of grace. For what makes men to differ, the grace God or the will of man?

    Although Pelagianism was condemned as heresy in the 400's and Semi-Pelagianism in the 500's as always happens, Arminius brought it up again 1000 years later and one of his points was "Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it". This was known as the Dutch Remonstrance controversy and this view was totally rejected by the Council of Dort.

    Why this is important Nikos is because all those scriptures are well and good, but you're quoting them from the understanding that "each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it". However this has been formally rejected (not only in Scripture) but by the Church, not once; not twice; but at least three times. Should I repeat that? No, I'll let you re-read it.

    Election then, which people get upset about, is a natural outflowing of that. As man, in his natural state, is dead in sin; does not seek God; and can't see the kingdom of heaven, then God has to step in and do something else all will be lost. That is why we're told that by grace are we saved, through faith, and that not of ourselves. That's why it depends on God's mercy, and as it's mercy "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God" because if it didn't it wouldn't be mercy.

  11. #209
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    What did Jesus tells us? "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44). Our experiences are verified by Scripture, they do not interpret Scripture.
    And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."-Jesus Christ

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  13. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."-Jesus Christ
    Yep so how do we understand that and the other things the Bible says?

    John quotes Jesus as saying "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself". John then goes on to explain what Jesus meant saying, "But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die." (John 12:32-33). So we have a general statement about His mode of death and the result.

    Then we have this more specific statement. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44). This is actually part of a specific discourse in John 6. Jesus says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (v37) then He says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (v44) and then "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me" (v45).

    Sometimes we speak in general terms, sometimes in detail. As I guy I'd be happy to know that something is white but I found this in a blog, "Just how many shades of white are there, you ask? Well, according to Kevin, the paint store helper, there are – and I am just approximating here – 493 – 494 if you include Whitish White (which, in addition to being an actual colour, also accurately describes most of my dance moves)". Well the Bible does that too, and we have to understand the general statements in light of the detailed ones, not the other way around.

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