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Banned
A troubling image for some.
Hi,
Some people, and I suspect most people here, are actually uncomfortable with this idea. I'm trying to understand why.
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Banned
I guess I should add this from Spurgeon so that we start on the same page (The Spurgeon Library | Divine Sovereignty)
The householder says, "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" and even so does the God of heaven and earth ask this question of you this morning. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" There is no attribute of God more comforting to his children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty hath ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all. There is nothing for which the children of God ought more earnestly to contend than the dominion of their Master over all creation—the kingship of God over all the works of his own hands—the throne of God, and his right to sit upon that throne.
Later, of sinful men Spurgeon says
Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne. They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love. They love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his sceptre in his hand and his crown upon his head.
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Senior Member
I'm not troubled or uncomfortable with that quote it just doesn't inspire me or give me comfort. I don't get awe or tingles of eternal assurance
It's also based on a falsehood - because Spurgeon believes that through DS he was elected and could never 'lose' his salvation
The biblical version is ...Jesus showed God's love by dying for us and has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness and through the power of the Holy Spirit he can keep us from falling and present us faultless before his glory
I believe the scripture teaches that God is pleased and glorified when we put our faith in his ability to keep us through every circumstance instead of the concept that DS has made you eternally secure.
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Banned
Originally Posted by
Cardinal TT
I'm not troubled or uncomfortable with that quote it just doesn't inspire me or give me comfort. I don't get awe or tingles of eternal assurance
It's also based on a falsehood - because Spurgeon believes that through DS he was elected and could never 'lose' his salvation
The biblical version is ...Jesus showed God's love by dying for us and has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness and through the power of the Holy Spirit he can keep us from falling and present us faultless before his glory
I believe the scripture teaches that God is pleased and glorified when we put our faith in his ability to keep us through every circumstance instead of the concept that DS has made you eternally secure.
Glad you recognise the difference, "he can keep us from falling" vs. he not only can keep us from falling, but intents to keep us from falling, because he has chosen to keep us from falling, therefore he will definitely, certainly keep us from falling.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Glad you recognise the difference, "he can keep us from falling" vs. he not only can keep us from falling, but intents to keep us from falling, because he has chosen to keep us from falling, therefore he will definitely, certainly keep us from falling.
I'm sure that feels comforting until you do actually abandon the faith and then you find that your former peers have cancelled the idea that you were ever saved. Because if you had been then according to osas you would never have abandoned the faith. Now you have nothing to fall back on since all your peers consider you a lifelong hypocrite who finally came out of the closet as exactly that. Has this happened before, to formerly fervent Calvinists ? It certainly has. OSAS cannot save you, only Jesus can.
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Banned
Originally Posted by
Colonel
I'm sure that feels comforting until you do actually abandon the faith and then you find that your former peers have cancelled the idea that you were ever saved. Because if you had been then according to osas you would never have abandoned the faith. Now you have nothing to fall back on since all your peers consider you a lifelong hypocrite who finally came out of the closet as exactly that. Has this happened before, to formerly fervent Calvinists ? It certainly has. OSAS cannot save you, only Jesus can.
As I see it.
Just because one is saved doesn't mean they won't stray a bit, or even a lot. David is a good example of that.
As you said, "OSAS cannot save you, only Jesus can". Thing is, as I said above, I believe that Jesus HAS saved me. Not that He can and therefore I may be saved, but that He has and therefore I am saved.
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Colonel,
Here's a concept being introduced to kids.
The words going with it put it in terms of one drowning and someone throwing them a lifesaver which they can take hold of and be saved.
Notice there are many lifesavers to be taken as required. Again the idea is that you can end up in the water again and need saving again.
The reformed belief is that God makes you unsinkable. He doesn't offer you something to help you float, he changes you so that you do float. If you fall in the water again you'll still float.
Very different ideas aren't they?
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Glad you recognise the difference, "he can keep us from falling" vs. he not only can keep us from falling, but intents to keep us from falling, because he has chosen to keep us from falling, therefore he will definitely, certainly keep us from falling.
What about Reformed leaders and people who fall into major sin - why weren't they definitely, certainly kept from falling
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Banned
Originally Posted by
Cardinal TT
What about Reformed leaders and people who fall into major sin - why weren't they definitely, certainly kept from falling
Point taken.
However as the topic is eternal security when I say "falling" I'm talking about losing one's salvation. As I said earlier, David is an example of one who fell into grave sin.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Point taken.
However as the topic is eternal security when I say "falling" I'm talking about losing one's salvation. As I said earlier, David is an example of one who fell into grave sin.
David repented deeply....what would happen if he didn't repent
I am quite certain that we can put to rest that most on this forum are uncomfortable with the OP quote...we see it as irrelevant
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