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Thread: A troubling image for some.

  1. #11
    All Christians affirm God's sovereignty, but we don't all see the same implications of His sovereignty. As a non-Calvinist I recognize that God is the ultimate authority, but at the same time I recognize that He in His sovereignty has extended to me libertarian free will, and allows me to choose my actions and decisions. I choose to believe and follow Jesus or to reject Him. If tomorrow I decide that I don't want to believe and follow Him, that doesn't take anything away from God's sovereignty. He's still the ultimate authority and will judge me accordingly. Sovereignty does not equate to determinism. This is where Calvinists go off the rails.

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  3. #12
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    All Christians affirm God's sovereignty, but we don't all see the same implications of His sovereignty. As a non-Calvinist I recognize that God is the ultimate authority, but at the same time I recognize that He in His sovereignty has extended to me libertarian free will, and allows me to choose my actions and decisions. I choose to believe and follow Jesus or to reject Him. If tomorrow I decide that I don't want to believe and follow Him, that doesn't take anything away from God's sovereignty. He's still the ultimate authority and will judge me accordingly. Sovereignty does not equate to determinism. This is where Calvinists go off the rails.
    Well put.

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    David repented deeply....what would happen if he didn't repent

    I am quite certain that we can put to rest that most on this forum are uncomfortable with the OP quote...we see it as irrelevant
    (I can't get a response from my Bible links at the moment so I'm not quoting verses here.)

    Consider our relationship with God:

    The devil was once our father; now God is.
    We were once in the kingdom of darkness; we're not in the kingdom of God's son.
    We are spoken of as having been born-again, as having been adopted as sons.
    We're told we're no longer called servants.

    A father/son relationship is just that. It's in our DNA. It's non-negotiable.

    Now things can cause a rift in that relationship, but no matter how much a father and son may drift apart, be disappointed in each other etc. they will always be father and son.

    David did repent and (from memory) as a result of that sin he never lived in peace again. If he hadn't repented I guess things would have been worse. We see later when David numbered Israel he was punished as well. He was still God's son though. (There was a lot of sexual sin in David's family. e.g. Solomon and his wives and concubines - was this related? We're not told).

    Somewhere we read God saying that their sin caused a separation and he no longer heard their prayer, but Israel was always God's chosen race.

    Sin will damage our personal, one-on-one relationship with God, but it can't undo our father/son relationship.

  5. #14
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Somewhere we read God saying that their sin caused a separation and he no longer heard their prayer, but Israel was always God's chosen race.

    Sin will damage our personal, one-on-one relationship with God, but it can't undo our father/son relationship.
    I disagree

    If Israel stayed God's chosen race purely on the merits of the previous father/son relationship then all of Israel would be in heaven
    The majority of Israel are not in heaven, Paul teaches only a remnant are saved...their sin separated them from God primarily the sin of unbelief

    So if the majority are in hell then the father/son relationship was permanently broken

  6. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I am quite certain that we can put to rest that most on this forum are uncomfortable with the OP quote...we see it as irrelevant
    Given the below Cardinal would that be seeing it differently rather than irrelevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    All Christians affirm God's sovereignty, but we don't all see the same implications of His sovereignty. As a non-Calvinist I recognize that God is the ultimate authority, but at the same time I recognize that He in His sovereignty has extended to me libertarian free will, and allows me to choose my actions and decisions.
    Reformed theology also says that we have a will and that we choose our actions and decisions, and that we are fully responsible for them.

    The difference, as I would understand it, is that you have an incompatibilist position, one that says that it is logically incompatible to say we have free will if God has predetermined everything that is to happen.

    This would certainly be true if God was a man. But He is God.

    What is the Biblical support for "libertarian free will"?

  7. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I disagree

    If Israel stayed God's chosen race purely on the merits of the previous father/son relationship then all of Israel would be in heaven
    The majority of Israel are not in heaven, Paul teaches only a remnant are saved...their sin separated them from God primarily the sin of unbelief

    So if the majority are in hell then the father/son relationship was permanently broken
    Understood.

    It's a bit iffy in a way. But as Paul says in Romans the real Israel, the real descendants of Abraham, are not the physical ones but those of faith.

    Those covered by the statement "their sin separated them from God primarily the sin of unbelief" were never sons in the first place.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Given the below Cardinal would that be seeing it differently rather than irrelevant?

    I have commented on this a few times that I believe in God's sovereignty but not defined by Calvinism

    The Calvinist version is irrelevant

  9. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I have commented on this a few times that I believe in God's sovereignty but not defined by Calvinism

    The Calvinist version is irrelevant
    So what is your version of God's sovereignty and how do you support if from Scripture. (which if you've done it before just means a link)

  10. #19
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    Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

  11. #20
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    So what is your version of God's sovereignty and how do you support if from Scripture. (which if you've done it before just means a link)
    God's sovereignty is based on his character and foreknowledge

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