Thread: Origins, the flood, ancient human migration

Here's a flood story from a tribe in Eastern Canada :

"Being angry with giants, God commanded a man to build a large canoe. The man did so, and when he embarked, the water rose till no land was visible anywhere."

Reading through the various flood stories of the Americas I can tell that they, in sum, contain most details of the Biblical account. Even though they were all separated from Europe-Africa-Asia for at least 15,000 years and with no access to the Bible. Even the giving of the rainbow as a sign is included in several stories.

From Eastern California :

"The sky fell and hit the water, causing high breakers that flooded all the land. That is why one can find shells and redwood logs on the highest ridges. Two women and two men jumped into a boat when they saw the water coming, and they were the only people saved. Sky-Owner gave them a song, and many days later the water fell when they sang it. Sky-Owner sent a rainbow to tell them the water would never cover the world again."

Lakota :

"He created the rainbow as a sign that there would be no more great flood, but warned that he had destroyed the first world by fire because it was bad, and the second world by flood, and he would destroy this world too if people make it bad and ugly"

If one knows the Biblical account well then it's easier to spot similarities in details, for instance involving specific birds :

Choctaw (Mississippi):
A prophet was sent by the high god to warn of a coming flood, but nobody took notice. When the flood came, the prophet took to a raft. After several months, he saw a black bird. He signaled it, but it just cawed and flew away. Later, he sighted and signaled a bluish bird. The bird flapped, moaned dolorously, and guided the raft towards where the sun was breaking through. Next morning, he landed on an island with all kinds of animals. He cursed the black bird (a crow) and blessed the bluish one (a dove). [Gaster, p. 116]

In the Biblical account, Noah sends out a (black) raven and then later a dove.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

Actually Col, Goliath calculates out at over 9' tall.

Like I said, according to the Septuagint translation from 200 BC into Greek, the one Jesus and the apostles quoted frequently, he was 4.5 cubits which is just under 7'. Flavius Josephus says the same thing.

Some original manuscripts in Hebrew say 4.5, a few say 5.5 and some say 6.5 cubits. Modern translations tend to go with 6.5 which could well simply be an exaggeration. If it isn't then the other manuscripts are consequently underreporting his height and I find that hard to believe. Note that the height of the Egyptian giant warrior slain by one of the Israelites is given as, simply, 5 cubits. Or about 7'7".

Flavius Josephus :

CHAPTER 9. HOW THE PHILISTINES MADE ANOTHER EXPEDITION AGAINST THE HEBREWS UNDER THE REIGN OF SAUL; AND HOW THEY WERE OVERCOME BY DAVID'S SLAYING GOLIATH IN SINGLE COMBAT.

Now there came down a man out of the camp of the Philistines, whose name was Goliath, of the city of Gath, a man of vast bulk, for he was of four cubits and a span in tallness, and had about him weapons suitable to the largeness of his body, for he had a breastplate on that weighed five thousand shekels: he had also a helmet and greaves of brass, as large as you would naturally suppose might cover the limbs of so vast a body. His spear was also such as was not carried like a light thing in his right hand, but he carried it as lying on his shoulders. He had also a lance of six hundred shekels; and many followed him to carry his armor.

The description of his size and the weight of his armor and weapons makes him similar to "the Mountain" from Game of Thrones, played by Hafthor Bjornsson who's 6'9" and weighs about 400 pounds.

Elsewhere Josephus mentions an other giant that's also mentioned in the Bible, the one that had twenty four fingers and toes :

2. When the king heard that the Philistines were gathered together at the city Gazara, he sent an army against them, when Sibbechai the Hittite, one of David's most courageous men, behaved himself so as to deserve great commendation, for he slew many of those that bragged they were the posterity of the giants, and vaunted themselves highly on that account, and thereby was the occasion of victory to the Hebrews. After which defeat, the Philistines made war again; and when David had sent an army against them, Nephan his kinsman fought in a single combat with the stoutest of all the Philistines, and slew him, and put the rest to flight. Many of them also were slain in the fight. Now a little while after this, the Philistines pitched their camp at a city which lay not far off the bounds of the country of the Hebrews. They had a man who was six cubits tall, and had on each of his feet and hands one more toe and finger than men naturally have. Now the person who was sent against them by David out of his army was Jonathan, the son of Shimea, who fought this man in a single combat, and slew him; and as he was the person who gave the turn to the battle, he gained the greatest reputation for courage therein. This man also vaunted himself to be of the sons of the giants. But after this fight the Philistines made war no more against the Israelites.

This giant warrior is said to be about 9 feet tall, which makes me wonder if perhaps that information is an exaggeration. At any rate it means that Goliath was known for his functional bulk rather than his extreme height, just like the world's strongest man, Hafthor Bjornsson is.

Did Josephus know what he was talking about regarding the height of Goliath ? The following quote suggests that he did :

"For which reason they removed their camp to Hebron; and when they had taken it, they slew all the inhabitants. There were till then left the race of giants, who had bodies so large, and countenances so entirely different from other men, that they were surprising to the sight, and terrible to the hearing. The bones of these men are still shown to this very day, unlike to any credible relations of other men. Now they gave this city to the Levites as an extraordinary reward. . "

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

When testing an Adam and Eve scenario, there's a follow-up question. Were Adam and Eve genetically similar or dissimilar? Gauger and Hössjer plugged both possibilities into their model. If similar, then the founding couple lived much longer ago. If the first pair were created with genetic diversity built in, then they lived more recently, near the time that Neanderthals appeared on the scene.

Gauger says that her and Hössjer's work is ongoing. They plan to add other things to their model, including the effects of natural selection.

To learn more about the paper and its back story, go here, here and here. And here.[/indent]

That would mean that Adam and Eve lived at least 500,000 years ago.

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

Why do population geneticists dismiss the single-couple scenario?

Because they are ungodly heathens/unbelievers/reprobates/atheists, etc, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by fuego

Because they are ungodly heathens/unbelievers/reprobates/atheists, etc, etc, etc.

In general they display a great need to become gods of reality by the application of absolute control to this world through the faculty of their minds. In total contrast to their basic premise that they are just a bunch of apes, in fact just a bunch of molecules being arranged then dissolving again according to a random system. It's totally amazing how divine the self declared un-divine crave to become.

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

I don't buy that at all.

I thought you may find it interesting, that's all.






.

It's their calculation, not mine.