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Thread: A lawyer answers the immigration/border crossers debate

  1. #1

    A lawyer answers the immigration/border crossers debate

    Someone else posted this, I don't know the author...discuss amongst yourselves. I'm not gonna argue with anyone, but I'll be lurking

    HOW TO WIN* EVERY FACEBOOK ARGUMENT** ABOUT #ENDFAMILYSEPARATION WITH FACTS (AND ALSO JOKES)

    Matt Cameron
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    June 19 at 9:23pm

    HOW TO WIN* EVERY FACEBOOK ARGUMENT** ABOUT #ENDFAMILYSEPARATION WITH FACTS (AND ALSO JOKES)

    Hello, it's your friendly neighborhood immigration attorney here to give you what you need to win all of your social media debates with the estimated 1/3 of the U.S. population which still actively supports their government in the kidnapping, torture, and legal orphaning of small children. (Adapted and expanded from a Twitter thread I did over the weekend.)

    1/ "THEIR PARENTS BROKE THE LAW"
    (A) Like every federal statute, illegal entry has *never* (until last month) been criminally enforced 100% against everyone all of the time
    (B) Border crossing has almost always been treated as a civil violation, not a criminal one
    (C) Per international law, asylum seekers are not supposed to be criminally prosecuted
    (D) Even if they cross an invisible line on a map without permission
    (E) You probably committed three federal misdemeanors today before lunch
    (F) So did Paul Manafort, who engaged in actual witness tampering *while out on bail for a far more serious suite of major felonies* and didn't I just see you posting last week that he got a raw deal?
    (G) You are a sociopath***

    2/ "WE DON'T LET OTHER KINDS OF LAWBREAKERS STAY WITH THEIR CHILDREN"
    (A) This conduct has never been prosecuted en masse as a criminal offense in US history (see above)
    (B) Our carceral state imprisons everyone as the unisized solution to everything from drug addiction to homicide.
    (C) That's not a *good* thing
    (D) There are alternatives to detention for immigrants in deportation proceedings, and they were working just fine before this
    (E) You are a sociopath

    3/ "OBAMA DID IT TOO"
    (A) No, he didn't
    (B) No, he didn't
    (C) No, he didn't
    (D) No, he didn't
    (E) No, he didn't
    (F) No, he didn't
    (G) No, he didn't
    (H) No, he didn't
    (I) No, he didn't
    (J) No, he didn't
    (K) No, he didn't
    (L) No, he didn't
    (M) Yes, he did some pretty bad things (even to migrant kids), and there's a universe of possibility to his left on immigration issues
    (N) Seriously, I promise he didn't do this
    (O) For real, he actually didn't
    (P) Also, it couldn't be more obvious that you don't care if *anyone* has ever done this objectively awful thing and that you're just going in for a particularly sociopathic round of whataboutism here, which reminds me did I ever mention that
    (Q) You are a sociopath

    4/ "THE DEMOCRATS MADE THE LAW, TRUMP HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO ENFORCE IT"
    (A) Cool. What law?
    (B) How does it work?
    (C) Are you talking about Flores v. Reno, because that's a judicial order to *keep families together*
    (D) Are you talking about the TVPRA, because that was Bush and also you're wrong
    (E) What we're actually talking about is 8 USC 1325(b), the misdemeanor illegal entry statute which Jeff Sessions has now required all federal prosecutors to charge in 100% of cases, and that's been around for going on 100 years but, like most federal criminal statutes, barely charged ever for first-time offenders
    (F) You are a sociopath

    5/ "DEMOCRATS COULD STOP TRUMP WITH A NEW LAW"
    (A) That's abuser logic
    (B) You're standing by (and, implicitly, behind) a horrific negotiation tactic which is causing permanent trauma to thousands of children for life for political gain
    (C) Not one Congressional Republican will agree to sign off on a simple fix which would keep these families together
    (D) Trump wants to blow up the entire immigration system by ending *nearly all family visas* (among other horrible stuff) and is literally holding children hostage to get what he wants
    (E) You are a sociopath

    6/ "HEY, WE ALL REMEMBER THAT PICTURE OF ELIAN GONZALEZ IN A CLOSET WITH A GUN TO HIS HEAD DON'T WE? WASN'T THAT YOUR BOY BILL CLINTON?"
    (A) That was awful
    (B) But done in the name of *keeping a family together*
    (C) Bill Clinton was bad; Janet Reno was worse
    (D) You are a sociopath

    7/ "THE GOVERNMENT DOES OTHER THINGS THAT SEPARATE PEOPLE FROM THEIR CHILDREN"
    (A) Those things are also bad
    (B) You are a sociopath

    8/ JEFF SESSIONS IS CARRYING OUT GOD'S LAW
    (A) So it turns out we don't live in a theocracy (yet)
    (B) Sessions specifically cited Romans 13:1, which was also used by German Nazi-sympathizing Christians against Nazi-opposing Christians
    (C) And slaveowners
    (D) The rest of Romans 13 isn't so good for your argument, have you ever actually read it or
    (E) You are a sociopath

    9/ "WE HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS OF OUR OWN"
    (A) We sure do!
    (B) Trump is actively doing everything possible to make every one of them worse
    (C) They're fleeing for their lives
    (D) US has a moral debt to #CentralAmerica after 150 yrs of military, economic, and political interference
    (E) Turns out we can aid refugee kids *and* homeless vets, what a country
    (F) You are a sociopath

    10/ "THEY SHOULD HAVE COME THE RIGHT WAY"
    (A) Tell me more, how does that work
    (B) Very cool, you're wrong
    (C) No, for real: learn how our system works
    (D) THERE IS NO LINE
    (E) What would you do if you had to choose between watching your kids die & crossing an invisible line on a map
    F) You are a sociopath

    11/"THEY SHOULD COME AT PORTS OF ENTRY OR OTHER LOCATIONS DESIGNATED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL"
    (A) Did you know the phrase "port of entry" before last week?
    (B) Asylum claims at POEs are being intentionally limited to a point that people are now being forced over the border
    (C) This is an intentional tactic to manufacture a crisis and declare war on asylum seekers so that Trump and Congressional Republicans can justify pushing the worst possible legislation and call it "immigration reform"
    (D) Hard-right "populist" government in Hungary did exactly the same thing for the same reason
    (E) You are a sociopath

    12/ "100% OF PARENTS WHO STAY IN THEIR HOME COUNTRIES GET TO STAY WITH THEIR KIDS"
    (A) Might want to check your math there
    (B) El Salvador & Honduras trade off each year as the world's murder capitals
    (C) Being murdered separates parents from kids
    (D) You are a sociopath

    13/ "WHY DON'T THEY CLAIM ASYLUM IN MEXICO?"
    (A) Mexico is not legally a "safe third country" for asylum purposes
    (B) Same gangs operate with impunity there, easy to find anyone they want
    (C) The Mexican asylum system is overloaded right now
    (D) The US has a moral debt to #CentralAmerica after 150 yrs of military, economic, & political interference
    (E) You are a sociopath

    14/ "WHY DON'T THEY STAY AND FIX THEIR OWN COUNTRIES?"
    (A) You are a sociopath

    15/ "THERE IS A CRISIS ON THE BORDER"
    (A) Only the one that Sessions/Trump have intentionally manufactured
    (B) Border crossings at their lowest in 40 years, a relative trickle now
    (C) Private prisons spent a lot on Trump's campaign, and their stock did *very* well after the inauguration; this is very obvious ROI
    (D) Mexicans are no longer coming, most of what we're seeing now is direct result of a sociopolitical crisis in Central America for which our country bears direct moral responsibility
    (E) You are a sociopath

    16/ "BAHAHA!1!! *TRIGGERED* MUCH, SNOWFLAKE?"
    (A) Knowing that thousands of children are being permanently traumatized & legally orphaned with my tax dollars in my name just so that Trump can get $130 billion for unnecessary border security?
    (B) Yeah. I'm upset
    (C) Also angry
    (D) Don't *ever* mistake my kindness for weakness
    (E) You are the *worst* kind of sociopath

    *No one really "wins" a Facebook argument and I'd encourage you to consider donating the value of the time you did/would have spent arguing to one of the several local organizations providing direct legal services to families at the border that everyone has been posting about

    **That said, these arguments *are* worth having because the only way we can possibly get anything done to stop this is to get people in red states angry enough about it to push their Republican representatives to do something about it. One mind at a time.

    **A NOTE ON MY SUBTLE AND NUANCED DEPLOYMENT OF THE WORD "SOCIOPATH" HEREIN:
    Personal attacks are low and pointless and I never go there unless very seriously provoked. (And on principle--when I go there, I go hard. Try me.) But correctly noting that someone who is completely unmoved by the sights and sounds and stories we've all been seeing from the border over the past few weeks is objectively displaying strong indicators of sociopathy seems... fair game? (And not for nothing, but Trump ran and now governs on the purest kind of sociopathic bullying.) IDK. I'm just tired and frustrated and angry and just so sad to learn how many people within a social degree or two of me are total sociopaths and I guess I just have to call it when I see it.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Garbage semantics using twisted analogies to hate Trump

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Don't compare Obama to Trump


    A lawyer answers the immigration/border crossers debate-images-jpg

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  7. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Garbage semantics using twisted analogies to hate Trump
    But is there TRUTH? (rhetorical question) It's not so much about "hating Trump" on a personal level, it's just that the dude has made some foolish decisions. And because of the fallout/flak he got, he had to correct some stuff. Get past all the partisan hate of liberals and the media.

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  9. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Don't compare Obama to Trump


    A lawyer answers the immigration/border crossers debate-images-jpg
    Trump is the one fixated on Obama, trying to dismantle EVERYTHING Obama did. Trump compares himself to Obama every doggone day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FaithfulOne View Post
    Trump is the one fixated on Obama, trying to dismantle EVERYTHING Obama did. Trump compares himself to Obama every doggone day.
    Can you please provide evidence that Trump compares himself to Obama every day????

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    Quote Originally Posted by FaithfulOne View Post
    But is there TRUTH? (rhetorical question) It's not so much about "hating Trump" on a personal level, it's just that the dude has made some foolish decisions. And because of the fallout/flak he got, he had to correct some stuff. Get past all the partisan hate of liberals and the media.
    But Democrats don't make bad decisions

    According to you is there ONE thing that Trump has done that is right


    It doesn't look like you want Trump to succeed and sadly many Democrats are like Bill Maher who prefer the whole nation suffers as an excuse to get rid of Trump

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  14. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Can you please provide evidence that Trump compares himself to Obama every day????
    Watch the news.
    https://www.vox.com/2018/6/21/174884...aration-border

    The executive order Trump signed yesterday opens the door to him using a tactic Obama used in 2014: the wide-scale detention of immigrant families for as long as it took to complete their immigration cases and deport them.

    Comparisons between Trump and Obama on immigration usually focus on deportations of unauthorized immigrants living in the US. Trump has been rapidly expanding enforcement, but the numbers are still comparable to Obama’s first term. (Obama holds the record for deporting more immigrants than any president, with more than 2 million deportations over eight years — though he scaled back enforcement in the last two years of his administration.)

    But the effects of the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” policy for prosecuting illegal entry this spring — the separation of families as a matter of standard government practice for about six weeks, and now (thanks to Trump’s executive order) a coming court fight over the indefinite detention of families seeking asylum — are reminiscent, for those of us who’ve been following immigration for a while, of what the Obama administration did in 2014.

    The comparison to Obama’s policies is especially relevant now that the Trump administration is seeking to keep families in immigration detention for weeks or months. The reason that Trump can’t do that under a current judicial order is that the courts stepped in to stop Obama from doing it.

    Now Trump is trying to remove the shackles placed on his predecessor.

  15. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    But Democrats don't make bad decisions

    According to you is there ONE thing that Trump has done that is right


    It doesn't look like you want Trump to succeed and sadly most Democrats are like Bill Maher who prefer the whole nation suffers as an excuse to get rid of Trump
    No, I just resent the hypocrisy exhibited by some of his followers. and I have NEVER insinuated Dems don't make bad decisions.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaithfulOne View Post
    No, I just resent the hypocrisy exhibited by some of his followers.
    I see far worse hypocrisy by Democrat followers

    Trump could solve world poverty and Democrats would still hate him

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