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Thread: where is the line?

  1. #1
    Resident Chocolate Monster Lista's Avatar
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    where is the line?

    Reading through some of the posts lately I've begun to ask myself, where is the line between faith, and life?

    WHY is someone not healed? Is it because we live in a fallen world? Is it because we don't have enough faith? Is it because God is working through the sickness? Is it because miracles are not for today?


    I think WOF limits God in saying that He HAS to heal because his Word, when proclaimed will bring healing. And the reasoning of saying that someone doesn't have enough faith, is damaging to the believer.

    I think cessationists limit God in saying that miracles were for Jesus' time.

    For me...I have to believe that sickness, death, evil, etc. happen because we live in a fallen world. I DO believe that God can heal, and I do believe that He is prompted by us proclaiming His Word, BUT I also believe that it's not entirely up to us having enough faith to get God to move. I think that God sometimes is working in other arenas of the situation.

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  3. #2
    Careful Lista, you're coming too close to the "sovereignty of God" conclusion...

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  5. #3
    Senior Member FresnoJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lista View Post
    WHY is someone not healed?


    Why

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:12

    All The Power?

    Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away. Each time he said, "My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness." So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 (NLT)

  6. #4
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    This portion out of Dutch Sheets' book 'Intercessory Prayer' directly addresses this with scripture. This book is a MUST read for every Christian IMO.


    Governing Principles

    Whether or not God directly controls every event in the life of a Christian can be answered by stating that the basic laws of sowing and reaping, cause and effect, individual responsibility and the free will aren't negated when we come to Christ. All promises from God are attached to conditions—governing principles. Most, if not all, of these conditions involve responsibility on our part. Protection is no exception.

    Most of us don't like that. It threatens us and somehow weakens God in our minds to imply He's not in total control of everything. And the majority are greatly offended if anything is taught implying that a failure to receive protection, provision, healing, an answer to prayer or anything else from God could be our fault.

    I can understand how it might threaten us—I'm threatened by me—but I don't understand why it offends. Are any of us claiming perfection? Aren't all of us going to fail once in a while? Then why are we offended when a teaching suggests that these imperfections and failures might hinder us?

    Why are we offended and opposed to a teaching that says our unbelief kept us from receiving something when so often the Bible says if we believe and do not doubt or waver we'll receive (see Matt. 17:20; 21:21; Mark 11:22-24; Jas. 1:6,7)?

    Why are we offended when it is implied that our inability to persevere created lack when the Bible says that we "through faith and patience inherit the promises" (Heb. 6:12)?
    Why are we confused or angry when it is suggested that our not doing something caused failure when the Bible says if we're "willing and obedient" we'll eat the good of the land (Isa. 1:19, KJV)?

    We don't forgive and still have the gall to think God will hear and answer our prayers (see Mark 11:25,26).

    Often, we eat poorly, don't exercise and abuse our bodies in other ways. Then we blame our sicknesses on God's will.

    We don't properly train our children, yet we're offended with the suggestion that their rebellion might be our fault (see Deut. 6:7; Prov. 22:6).

    We don't abide in Christ and His Word. Still we blame it on "God's will" when we "ask what we will" and it isn't done (John 15:7).

    We know faith comes through hearing and meditating on God's Word (see Rom. 10:17), and most of us do very little of that. But let someone imply that we didn't receive a promise because of unbelief and we're irate.

    The Scriptures teach that "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High" (KJV) receives the protective promises of the remainder of Psalm 91...that I have an armor I must wear and carry, including the shield of faith, to ward off Satan's fiery darts (see Eph. 6:13-18)...that Satan goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour and that I am to resist him (see 1 Pet. 5:8; Jas. 4:7)...and yet, let someone suggest that my lack of protection from some destructive happening could be my own fault and I'm offended. How about you?

    I'm certainly not implying that God never allows us to walk through difficulties, that all our problems are because of disobedience or that all unanswered prayer is because of unbelief. I'm simply saying that many of our failures and difficulties are our fault, not "God's will"; we have a part to play in the securing of protection and other heavenly provisions.

    Let's try to lay down our fears, insecurities and tendencies toward offense. Let's accept the fact that the Scriptures are filled with principles that put responsibility on us, which must be met to receive God's promises. Let's realize this doesn't cancel grace and promote salvation by works. Grace does not imply "no responsibility" on our part. Let's realize the love of God is unconditional, but His favor and blessing are not.

    Let's cast off all laziness, complacency and apathy. Let's realize we will fall short at times and not feel condemned when we do. Let's!
    ____________

    PM me if you want a .pdf of the book.

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  8. #5
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lista View Post
    Reading through some of the posts lately I've begun to ask myself, where is the line between faith, and life?

    WHY is someone not healed? Is it because we live in a fallen world? Is it because we don't have enough faith? Is it because God is working through the sickness? Is it because miracles are not for today?


    I think WOF limits God in saying that He HAS to heal because his Word, when proclaimed will bring healing. And the reasoning of saying that someone doesn't have enough faith, is damaging to the believer.

    I think cessationists limit God in saying that miracles were for Jesus' time.

    For me...I have to believe that sickness, death, evil, etc. happen because we live in a fallen world. I DO believe that God can heal, and I do believe that He is prompted by us proclaiming His Word, BUT I also believe that it's not entirely up to us having enough faith to get God to move. I think that God sometimes is working in other arenas of the situation.
    I don't have faith for moving the Rocky Mountains into the Pacific Ocean. Stating that fact is not damaging to me as a believer, that is a matter of telling the truth.

    Some people don't have faith for healing. Stating that fact is not damaging to them as believers, that is a matter of telling the truth.

    Declaring that God does not necessarily want to heal one is the same as declaring that one does not have faith for healing. One cannot have faith for something that one is not even aligned with mentally.

    James 1:6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
    7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

    Oh and by the way, one can have great faith in Jesus as one's personal Saviour and none at all in him as one's personal Healer. Faith is specific.

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  10. #6
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John's Avatar
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    Most of us receive and believe an incomplete gospel. We are saved by grace, the rest of it, you gotta work for that!

    By His stripes ye are healed!

    The original disciples (70) ..

    Luke 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

    they just followed orders and went..

    Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

    Just preaching the good news, a component of which is healing, the condition..only believe.

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  12. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FaithfulOne View Post
    Careful Lista, you're coming too close to the "sovereignty of God" conclusion...
    Do You mean the Christian "karma" doctrine ?

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  14. #8
    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    as john wimber puts it "sometimes people don't get healed and i don't know why? if it doesn't work the first time try again!" i know when i'm sharing the gospel about 90% of the time the Holy Spirit operates in the gifts and signs and wonders occur often including healing. just recently i was at the gym and a man walked past me and the Holy Spirit told me to speak His word to the man. i asked the man about his physical sicknesses. as i spoke to him the Holy Spirit said this man had problems in his legs. i asked him to lift up his left sweat pants leg and he was wearing circulatory hose. i prayed for his legs and the power of the Holy Spirit flowed out of me into him. i then asked him about his wife by the Holy Spirits direction. he looked at me kind of strange and said i have never spoken to any body about that. he shared with me about some issues and i told him to go home lay hands on her and God will heal her. i told him before i left him that the Lord had called him to be a evangelist and to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit as age was not a factor n his ministry. he looked at me and said ur right i am called to evangelism to the homeless. i see this all the time when i am out n the marketplace with people i dont know.

    the point is many times i see signs and wonders performed but there r times where nothing happens. its those times i trust in the Lord that He has a reason for not healing someone. u guys can operate in power evangelism just as i do. just stay n ur prayer closet ALL the time.

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  16. #9
    Healing is the children's bread ! If they don't eat their bread the world gets the overflow of God's compassion.

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  18. #10
    Fuego, that was an interesting article..

    this isn't a direct response, but it prompted some thoughts.


    A. not threatened
    B. not offended
    C. I don't assign "fault" anywhere.. (dealing with healings etc..) not man, not God

    I don't expect everyone to agree on these things.

    I don't have to defend a sovereign God. He does that quite well Himself.
    I'm frustrated because I can't find the verses that talk about Him doing what He does to always bring Glory to Himself. Everything.

    If He choosed to heal us.. fine, if He chooses to not heal us, I'm fine with that too. I yield my will to His. If He chooses to [whatever] I'm fine with it.

    I will fully admit I would like a Post-it now and again to let me know where we're going.. a road sign would be nice.. But, then again, I guess it would not give me the opportunity to engage my faith in trusting Him.

    I will also fully admit, sometimes I have to say "I believe, help me in my unbelief" I know, K N O W He can, if he chooses, but sometimes I don't expect He WILL.

    I'm not even sure that makes sense.




    Lionheart.. what is the "Christian Karma" thing?.. or was that a joke?

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