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Thread: where is the line?

  1. #21
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I don't have faith for moving the Rocky Mountains into the Pacific Ocean. Stating that fact is not damaging to me as a believer, that is a matter of telling the truth.

    Some people don't have faith for healing. Stating that fact is not damaging to them as believers, that is a matter of telling the truth.

    Declaring that God does not necessarily want to heal one is the same as declaring that one does not have faith for healing. One cannot have faith for something that one is not even aligned with mentally.

    James 1:6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
    7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

    Oh and by the way, one can have great faith in Jesus as one's personal Saviour and none at all in him as one's personal Healer. Faith is specific.
    I agree...when we don't see and experience what our theologies states we tend to try to explain it...it's like someone needing to lose weight...once we convince ourselves we can't we stop the pursuit...God word challenges us to press in...to hold fast..and in doing this our flesh dies...we kill human reasoning...we resist compromise....pride has to fall...

    It's better to admit we don't have what we need than to decide we really don't need it or to decide it's for someone else and not us...the first will compel us to pursue and the other two will end our pursuit...

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  3. #22
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Hope and faith are far different things...some concept of sovereignty replaces faith with hope..I hope God heals me but if He doesn't....that is not faith..

    Faith is the substance of things hoped for and it is the EVIDENCE of things not seen. Faith actually expects..anticipates...

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  5. #23
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I don't have faith for moving the Rocky Mountains into the Pacific Ocean. Stating that fact is not damaging to me as a believer, that is a matter of telling the truth.

    Some people don't have faith for healing. Stating that fact is not damaging to them as believers, that is a matter of telling the truth.
    I know what you're saying and I agree, but it's almost a little confusing how you're saying it. Someone might read that as 'God hasn't given me the faith for healing', and that's not the case. Every believer DOES have faith for healing, but not every believer has the knowledge of how to exercise that faith properly. Or if they do, they don't walk in the patience, tenacity, etc that it takes in exercising that faith in order to receive the healing, or they waver when they ask, etc.

    Going back to the Paul in Lystra example you posted, Paul perceived he had faith to be healed. When Paul gave the command, the man could have chosen not to obey and would not have been healed even though he had the faith for it. So someone can actually possess the faith to be healed (all believers actually have the substance of faith to be healed) but yet not actually be healed because they don't know how to exercise that faith toward God for it.

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  7. #24
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Hope and faith are far different things...
    There is not a specific teaching on this. And faith being the substance of thing being hoped for...then hope is the starting point of receiving from God even before the faith. And if we have a damaged hope not in line with the Word, then the faith isn't going to work. Faith will only give substance to Godly hope, hope that is crafted from the Word of God.

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  9. #25
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I know what you're saying and I agree, but it's almost a little confusing how you're saying it. Someone might read that as 'God hasn't given me the faith for healing', and that's not the case. Every believer DOES have faith for healing, but not every believer has the knowledge of how to exercise that faith properly. Or if they do, they don't walk in the patience, tenacity, etc that it takes in exercising that faith in order to receive the healing, or they waver when they ask, etc.

    Going back to the Paul in Lystra example you posted, Paul perceived he had faith to be healed. When Paul gave the command, the man could have chosen not to obey and would not have been healed even though he had the faith for it. So someone can actually possess the faith to be healed (all believers actually have the substance of faith to be healed) but yet not actually be healed because they don't know how to exercise that faith toward God for it.
    This is falling into the self sufficient doctrine. The word is loaded with examples and precepts that allow for a fuller experience of faith corporately.

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  11. #26
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    This is falling into the self sufficient doctrine. The word is loaded with examples and precepts that allow for a fuller experience of faith corporately.
    Sure the word is loaded with that. But that doesn't limit one to still receiving from God for oneself regardless of the corporate experience. I am speaking specifically of an individual receiving from God for themselves outside the corporate experience. Some may be in a position that they can't receive corporately. There is an answer for every circumstance.

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  13. #27
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Sure the word is loaded with that. But that doesn't limit one to still receiving from God for oneself regardless of the corporate experience. I am speaking specifically of an individual receiving from God for themselves outside the corporate experience. Some may be in a position that they can't receive corporately. There is an answer for every circumstance.
    A lot of faith teaching focuses on the premise that the individual has every component of faith available. The bible says differently, some have the gift of faith which I believe is supercharged, mountain moving stuff, but that is not available to all. Some have the gift of healing but that is not available to all. Is healing available to all? Yes and Amen but that does not mean that an individuals faith is responsible for that nor is it grounds to deem others defective when they are sick. You put God in a box with that doctrine, there are many ways He ministers healing, through others (the laying on of hands), through the prayers of others, etc.

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  15. #28
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    A lot of faith teaching focuses on the premise that the individual has every component of faith available. The bible says differently, some have the gift of faith which I believe is supercharged, mountain moving stuff, but that is not available to all. Some have the gift of healing but that is not available to all. Is healing available to all? Yes and Amen but that does not mean that an individuals faith is responsible for that nor is it grounds to deem others defective when they are sick. You put God in a box with that doctrine, there are many ways He ministers healing, through others (the laying on of hands), through the prayers of others, etc.
    Where have I discounted what you are saying? Nowhere. I've qualified repeatedly. This is where we have to differentiate between the gifts of the Spirit and one's personal faith toward God. Obviously not everyone operates in those gifts, but God has given each individual the faith necessary to receive from Him whatever is available through the sacrifice of Jesus. And no one has deemed another 'defective' or etc. for not being able to receive on their own. Several of us have already qualified that (as we kept qualifying in the speaking with the dead thread but was ignored). There are many avenues to receive from God, and as an individual believer is one of them. I can say personally that most of what I have received from God has been on a personal and individual, not corporate level. Does that disqualify the corporate level? No. But the individual level is there and is always available.

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  17. #29
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Where have I discounted what you are saying? Nowhere. I've qualified repeatedly. This is where we have to differentiate between the gifts of the Spirit and one's personal faith toward God. Obviously not everyone operates in those gifts, but God has given each individual the faith necessary to receive from Him whatever is available through the sacrifice of Jesus. And no one has deemed another 'defective' or etc. for not being able to receive on their own. Several of us have already qualified that (as we kept qualifying in the speaking with the dead thread but was ignored). There are many avenues to receive from God, and as an individual believer is one of them. I can say personally that most of what I have received from God has been on a personal and individual, not corporate level. Does that disqualify the corporate level? No. But the individual level is there and is always available.

    You keep using the "buts"..

    But the individual level is there and is always available.
    You give a nod to corporate faith, giftings in the body but come right back around to an absolute.

    The bible says differently.

    Romans 12:3-5 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.
    We have all been given a measure of faith, that faith can be developed by the hearing of the word but that doesn't mean it is all sufficient. The full expression of Christ is manifest through His Body, members joined and operating severally in accord, not individually.

    If your faith or your faith teaching can't get someone healed God has other ways, other gifts in the Body, no one is precluded from health, deliverance, sanity, wholeness by their faith alone, it is a gift, grace bestowed on you. Personal, individual faith is not the be-all.

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  19. #30
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    You keep using the "buts"..

    You give a nod to corporate faith, giftings in the body but come right back around to an absolute, so any confusion on my part is on you.
    No John. Any reasonable person understands what I am saying.

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