Thread: where is the line?

Originally Posted by Femme*

Fuego, that was an interesting article..

this isn't a direct response, but it prompted some thoughts.


A. not threatened
B. not offended
C. I don't assign "fault" anywhere.. (dealing with healings etc..) not man, not God

I don't expect everyone to agree on these things.

I don't have to defend a sovereign God. He does that quite well Himself.
I'm frustrated because I can't find the verses that talk about Him doing what He does to always bring Glory to Himself. Everything.

If He choosed to heal us.. fine, if He chooses to not heal us, I'm fine with that too. I yield my will to His. If He chooses to [whatever] I'm fine with it.

I will fully admit I would like a Post-it now and again to let me know where we're going.. a road sign would be nice.. But, then again, I guess it would not give me the opportunity to engage my faith in trusting Him.

I will also fully admit, sometimes I have to say "I believe, help me in my unbelief" I know, K N O W He can, if he chooses, but sometimes I don't expect He WILL.

I'm not even sure that makes sense.

It makes total sense to ME.

Mark 11:22 NKJV So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God.
23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.

James 1:6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Mark 11:22 NKJV So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God.
23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.

James 1:6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

That scripture pretty much puts all the responsibility on US when receiving from God by faith. Many can't 'handle' that as Sheets points out in excerpt from his book I posted. It's not an accusation against a person, or an indictment, or placing 'blame', it's just the facts of the matter as revealed by the Holy Spirit through James.

Originally Posted by fuego

That scripture pretty much puts all the responsibility on US when receiving from God by faith. Many can't 'handle' that as Sheets points out in excerpt from his book I posted. It's not an accusation against a person, or an indictment, or placing 'blame', it's just the facts of the matter as revealed by the Holy Spirit through James.

My premise simply starts with God having issued healing to all mankind through the atonement and available by faith. It's the same as with salvation. Once people are taught that "God might not actually want to save you" and they start believing that then it will get very hard for them to find faith for salvation. Some individuals do actually believe this and they remain in a deeply religious state in the negative sense but they never find faith for salvation and reconciliation with God. Salvation and healing (by faith) work the same way.

But, where salvation can only be received by faith, healing is also provided for through for instance the gifts of the Spirit. Faith for healing isn't the only provision made. So all responsibility is not on each individual, it is also on God's ministers and perhaps on the Church of even local church, collectively.

I think where faith teaching sometimes fails is the focus on "one man is an island", the notion that any one individual can fully express the characteristics of Christ, that is "individualism". Some have this, some have that. If you don't have the faith to heal yourself, which by the way doesn't seem to be a biblical standard, no indication that you should, you have access to the body of Christ, a fuller expression (beyond yourself), where your needs can and will be met.

I saw a recent prayer request where the person requesting prayer was given a "faith teaching", in my mind that was cruel. Kind of a "you're on your own with that sister!". We encourage others to take care of themselves (as it relates to faith), that's in opposition to how the body operates.

Originally Posted by Colonel

My premise simply starts with God having issued healing to all mankind through the atonement and available by faith. It's the same as with salvation. Once people are taught that "God might not actually want to save you" and they start believing that then it will get very hard for them to find faith for salvation. Some individuals do actually believe this and they remain in a deeply religious state in the negative sense but they never find faith for salvation and reconciliation with God. Salvation and healing (by faith) work the same way.

But, where salvation can only be received by faith, healing is also provided for through for instance the gifts of the Spirit. Faith for healing isn't the only provision made. So all responsibility is not on each individual, it is also on God's ministers and perhaps on the Church of even local church, collectively.

I agree, but let me say this in regards to "So all responsibility is not on each individual, it is also on God's ministers and perhaps on the Church of even local church, collectively..." My point is that healing is available by faith to an individual if he asks and doesn't waver as said by James. So regardless of 'failure' in all the other areas that healing can come by, if the individual can ask in faith and not waver, they WILL receive their healing according to James. So that option is always available regardless of whether it comes by the other avenues or not. So in that sense ultimately the responsibility does come back in the individual in that sense. He does have an avenue whereby he can receive even if all the other avenues don't happen for him.

Originally Posted by fuego

I agree, but let me say this in regards to "So all responsibility is not on each individual, it is also on God's ministers and perhaps on the Church of even local church, collectively..." My point is that healing is available by faith to an individual if he asks and doesn't waver as said by James. So regardless of 'failure' in all the other areas that healing can come by, if the individual can ask in faith and not waver, they WILL receive their healing according to James. So that option is always available regardless of whether it comes by the other avenues or not. So in that sense ultimately the responsibility does come back in the individual in that sense. He does have an avenue whereby he can receive even if all the other avenues don't happen for him.

Yes. And heading in the right direction towards faith for healing will make it much easier for the power of God to connect through the gifts of the Spirit as well.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Yes. And heading in the right direction towards faith for healing will make it much easier for the power of God to connect through the gifts of the Spirit as well.

Agreed.

Acts 14:8 In Lystra there sat a man who was lame. He had been that way from birth and had never walked.
9 He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed
10 and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk.

Jesus frequently did the same, he told people "according to your faith it be done" and the next thing that happened was that the person was physically healed.

I was knocked down once, my neck just locked up, I'm laying on the couch and a few brothers from church show up, now I had prayed for my neck, laid hands on myself, rebuked the infirmity but when they showed I knew that one of them must have the faith in them to fix it. They never mentioned anything about healing, just visited so as they were heading for the door I said, "Hey Steven, get over here and lay hands on my neck, I believe you have the gift of healing." He was kinda like "huh" but went ahead and laid hands and prayed. Praise Jesus, the neck unlocked!

We really need to recognize the body of Christ, all of your needs are covered in there, somewhere.