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Thread: Legitimate grounds for having an abortion?

  1. #81
    Resident Chocolate Monster Lista's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Here is an other scenario that I find more difficult than the other scenarios discussed. What to do with pregnant rape victims. I'm talking about people who were genuinely raped as in assaulted.

    The rule of the thumb with abortion is that you have to have sex to get pregnant. Some might complain that they were trying hard not to get pregnant by it but there was that chance and they knew about that in advance. So having to give birth to the resulting child is a simple matter of being responsible for one's actions. But this is not the case with rape. It gets even worse when the one raped is a child. Many children have their first period before they are 10 years old these days.

    What now ? Well as with every other case the mother should be allowed to give birth to the child, she should receive thorough counselling, the option of having the baby adopted and so forth. But in this case I think it should be legal to have the baby aborted, and it should be found generally acceptable. The main reason why is that the pregnancy has the potential to compound the rape trauma enormously, making it last at least nine months. People's reactions vary enormously though. This is something that can be exploited so in my opinion it should require that the rape is reported immediately so that the pregnancy doesn't become the cause of the rape report. Meaning it is made a criminal matter with the police being involved, with medical doctors doing a physical examination, parents getting involved if it is a minor etc. I know this isn't fundamentally a matter of saving the mother's life but those nine months can in some cases amount to sheer psychological torture and in this case with no responsibility on the part of the mother.
    I've thought about this a lot, and my opinion would not be popular in the main stream market nor the Christian realm, but here it is:

    If I were to be raped I would go immediately to the hospital to have a D&C. 1. That would help detectives with a rape kit, and 2. it would be before the egg and sperm even have a chance to create life (not attractive to the Christian market)

    If a child is raped, it is devastating, that poor child has suffered horribly, and will need extensive counseling, but does the harm of one child mean the death of another? Why must TWO children be made to suffer, one with emotional scarring, and the other with death? Not to mention, an abortion performed on a child will almost guarantee that child will be barren for the rest of her life. (this opinion is not popular with the main stream market)

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  3. #82
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lista View Post
    I've thought about this a lot, and my opinion would not be popular in the main stream market nor the Christian realm, but here it is:

    If I were to be raped I would go immediately to the hospital to have a D&C. 1. That would help detectives with a rape kit, and 2. it would be before the egg and sperm even have a chance to create life (not attractive to the Christian market)

    If a child is raped, it is devastating, that poor child has suffered horribly, and will need extensive counseling, but does the harm of one child mean the death of another? Why must TWO children be made to suffer, one with emotional scarring, and the other with death? Not to mention, an abortion performed on a child will almost guarantee that child will be barren for the rest of her life. (this opinion is not popular with the main stream market)
    Part 2 I agree with 100%...two wrongs don't make a right and if it's true that there is a spiritual connection between mother and child that is made at conception that young person would actually be victimized twice it would seem.

    Part 1..First a D& C is not necessary for DNA..it could be a simple as a Pap Smear swatch I would think.
    Second, a sperm can fertilize an egg within 1/2 hour. That is why both the morning after pill and the D&C would be a questionable choice for Christians and why so many fight the forced funding of that clause in the insurance..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Here is an other scenario that I find more difficult than the other scenarios discussed. What to do with pregnant rape victims. I'm talking about people who were genuinely raped as in assaulted.

    The rule of the thumb with abortion is that you have to have sex to get pregnant. Some might complain that they were trying hard not to get pregnant by it but there was that chance and they knew about that in advance. So having to give birth to the resulting child is a simple matter of being responsible for one's actions. But this is not the case with rape. It gets even worse when the one raped is a child. Many children have their first period before they are 10 years old these days.

    What now ? Well as with every other case the mother should be allowed to give birth to the child, she should receive thorough counselling, the option of having the baby adopted and so forth. But in this case I think it should be legal to have the baby aborted, and it should be found generally acceptable. The main reason why is that the pregnancy has the potential to compound the rape trauma enormously, making it last at least nine months. People's reactions vary enormously though. This is something that can be exploited so in my opinion it should require that the rape is reported immediately so that the pregnancy doesn't become the cause of the rape report. Meaning it is made a criminal matter with the police being involved, with medical doctors doing a physical examination, parents getting involved if it is a minor etc. I know this isn't fundamentally a matter of saving the mother's life but those nine months can in some cases amount to sheer psychological torture and in this case with no responsibility on the part of the mother.
    How a child is conceived has no bearing on the reality of their humanity and their murder if aborted. All these actually serve to do in the discussion is pull the emotions into play to alter that view by creating greater sympathy for, in this case, the first victim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lcash View Post
    In 1980 My wife was 3 months pregnant when she was diagnosed with a tubular pregnancy. They did an ultrasound then wanted to do emergency surgery to remove the baby, tube and part of an ovary. I asked if there was the possibility for it to move from the tube to the womb and was told it was impossible. We consented to the surgery the next morning under the condition that they do another ultrasound prior to the surgery. I called every pastor Pentecostal and Charismatic that I knew in town and none would come out to the hospital to pray! They each said "Sometimes this is just how God works"! I had just gotten out of Bible School 2 years prior and that was not what I was taught. So we prayed that night and when I got home I stayed on my knees till the wee hours of the morning until I felt a release in my spirit. So the next morning as I walked into her room, they were shaving her abdomen for surgery, the ultrasound had already been done. The Dr walked in, felt her womb, said "Folks, I don't know what happened by the baby is now in the womb" She went on to have a healthy girl who is now 34 years old and is a CT tech at UCSF Medical center in San Fransisco
    Now THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!! Thanks for sharing that awesome testimony about the power of prayer...

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  9. #85
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lista View Post
    I've thought about this a lot, and my opinion would not be popular in the main stream market nor the Christian realm, but here it is:

    If I were to be raped I would go immediately to the hospital to have a D&C. 1. That would help detectives with a rape kit, and 2. it would be before the egg and sperm even have a chance to create life (not attractive to the Christian market)

    If a child is raped, it is devastating, that poor child has suffered horribly, and will need extensive counseling, but does the harm of one child mean the death of another? Why must TWO children be made to suffer, one with emotional scarring, and the other with death? Not to mention, an abortion performed on a child will almost guarantee that child will be barren for the rest of her life. (this opinion is not popular with the main stream market)
    It's a difficult matter, yes. The D&C thing should work in our part of the world, it may not be immediately available in the rural third world (I don't know the details of the procedure involved). These scenarios are typically discussed in relation to the posters' immediate environment rather than in world terms. Christianity relates to the world, not just to our own backyards.

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  11. #86
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    How a child is conceived has no bearing on the reality of their humanity and their murder if aborted. All these actually serve to do in the discussion is pull the emotions into play to alter that view by creating greater sympathy for, in this case, the first victim.
    "The fact that a civilian finds himself in Iraq has no bearing on the reality of his or her humanity and their murder if killed in a war. All these actually serve to do in the discussion is pull the emotions into play to alter that view by creating greater sympathy for, in this case, the concept of a justifiable war."

    Exact same logic. Never mind that I could as well include unborn babies (inside pregnant civilian women being killed) in the two above sentences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The fact that a civilian finds himself in Iraq has no bearing on the reality of his or her humanity and their murder if killed in a war. All these actually serve to do in the discussion is pull the emotions into play to alter that view by creating greater sympathy for, in this case, the concept of a justifiable war.

    Exact same logic. Never mind that I could as well include unborn babies (inside pregnant civilian women being killed) in the two above sentences.
    Not for me..scenarios don't alter God's will...yes they serve US to find some reasonable justification but that, sadly, only serves to re-throne our own souls.

    Our challenge is to determine God's will regarding ABORTION and then view the scenarios from that vantage point.

    So, since I believe LIFE begins at conception and that a new living human being has been created ALL scenarios are viewed from that vantage point...

    For someone who does not hold that view scenarios serve the purpose of deciding when He does and when He does not OK abortion.

    I don't believe God views abortion as an option therefore I don't believe we should either if He is our LORD.

    So for ME, that is where the discussions of scenarios enters...so if GOD views abortion as murder we know He would never approve that so then we take our SITUATIONS and say OK, that option is not on the table...what now God?

    Now, discussing war we would first need to determine if the Bible indicates God approves of war..seems to me that once that issue is settled we can look at the horrors of war and say...Ok God, that option is on or off the table.. what now God?

    Colonel...this might make a good new topic...we had a similar thread a while back on God changing His mind...does He really? Can we persuade Him our situations are different?

    Seems to me a lot of threads strongest viewpoints lean toward that mentality...I believe this is flawed view of God the creator and Father and LORD...I don't think our 'situations' alter His vie of right and wrong, good and evil...whether it's war or divorce or abortion...I don't think God is open for negotiations or our human reasoning or our personal scenarios...

    I believe He loves us and has great compassion on us but He expects us to bow to HIS will and then trust Him to work out the details...

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    I think many Christians believe Christianity is a democracy...it is not.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Not for me..scenarios don't alter God's will...yes they serve US to find some reasonable justification but that, sadly, only serves to re-throne our own souls.

    Our challenge is to determine God's will regarding ABORTION and then view the scenarios from that vantage point.

    So, since I believe LIFE begins at conception and that a new living human being has been created ALL scenarios are viewed from that vantage point...

    For someone who does not hold that view scenarios serve the purpose of deciding when He does and when He does not OK abortion.

    I don't believe God views abortion as an option therefore I don't believe we should either if He is our LORD.

    So for ME, that is where the discussions of scenarios enters...so if GOD views abortion as murder we know He would never approve that so then we take our SITUATIONS and say OK, that option is not on the table...what now God?

    Now, discussing war we would first need to determine if the Bible indicates God approves of war..seems to me that once that issue is settled we can look at the horrors of war and say...Ok God, that option is on or off the table.. what now God?

    Colonel...this might make a good new topic...we had a similar thread a while back on God changing His mind...does He really? Can we persuade Him our situations are different?

    Seems to me a lot of threads strongest viewpoints lean toward that mentality...I believe this is flawed view of God the creator and Father and LORD...I don't think our 'situations' alter His vie of right and wrong, good and evil...whether it's war or divorce or abortion...I don't think God is open for negotiations or our human reasoning or our personal scenarios...

    I believe He loves us and has great compassion on us but He expects us to bow to HIS will and then trust Him to work out the details...
    Again, it seems to me that you have defined the unborn child as more valuable than a born human being. I'm merely comparing on the grounds that they are equally valuable.

    In any case, your whole logic falls apart because unborn children are killed during wars, unless you are going to define all wars as unjustifiable and contrary to God's will (which is obviously not the same as your personal sensibilities).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Again, it seems to me that you have defined the unborn child as more valuable than a born human being.

    No Colonel..but abortion does define the unborn as LESS valuable..I believe God views the value of both the mother and the child EQUAL..so that negates the woman's right to chose her life over the baby.

    I'm merely comparing on the grounds that they are equally valuable.

    ...not if you view scenarios tilt the scale..

    In any case, your whole logic falls apart because unborn children are killed during wars, unless you are going to define all wars as unjustifiable and contrary to God's will (which is obviously not the same as your personal sensibilities).
    No it does not...in wars mothers don't choose to kill their babies...those babies are casualties of war just like their mothers and other children and civilians...whether God approves of war or not would determine whether those casualties are murder or something else..

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