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Thread: Legitimate grounds for having an abortion?

  1. #91
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Forcing that a woman should choose the baby's life over her own means per definition that one has defined the baby as more valuable. This is very simple logic.

    The mother killed in the war doesn't choose to kill her baby but implicitly you who are advocating the war as justifiable have endorsed its being killed. Anything else is nothing more than a matter of evading the facts.

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  3. #92
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Forcing that a woman should choose the baby's life over her own means per definition that one has defined the baby as more valuable. This is very simple logic.

    No...when lives are equal there is no room for choice...God makes that call. So that is why the scenarios don't work...as believers we turn to God for the third option.
    Option 1. Doctors say you have to choose or die.
    Option 2. Bot lives are equal so you can't choose so you must die (can't be right cause both lives matter)
    Option 3. God says both lives are equal so turn to HIM in faith and submit the will to agree with HIM..leave the results to HIM who is LORD over both equal valued lives.

    Why is this so hard to grasp? GOD does not force us to choose one life over another ..that is a human reasoning concept...

    The mother killed in the war doesn't choose to kill her baby but implicitly you who are advocating the war as justifiable have endorsed its being killed. Anything else is nothing more than a matter of evading the facts.
    No, if 'I' endorsed war 'I' would be endorsing a team of soldiers or warriors to do battle...'I' would not be sending my team to kill civilian non-combatants.
    Do we know there is a chance of that? Yes...but that is NOT the intent..so casualties would be just that...however I am not formulating a view on war as it's not the topic.

    When a woman enters an abortion clinic their is absolute intent to kill that innocent child by both her and the surgeon..nothing in that even can in any way be viewed as passive.

    But if that kind of reasoning convinces you GOD approves of certain abortions...that's between you and God.

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  5. #93
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Not choosing implies a choice to preserve the life of the baby which implies defining it as more valuable. To make things perfectly equal you would either have to involve a toss of the dice, kill every other baby and every other mother or similar. Trying to get away with "I did nothing" which is what you advocate in each scenario is the typical Pacifist's way of reasoning as if doing nothing (or even just not doing anything directly as with the war scenario) makes one less than responsible for the result, which is total nonsense.

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  7. #94
    Resident Chocolate Monster Lista's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Part 2 I agree with 100%...two wrongs don't make a right and if it's true that there is a spiritual connection between mother and child that is made at conception that young person would actually be victimized twice it would seem.

    Part 1..First a D& C is not necessary for DNA..it could be a simple as a Pap Smear swatch I would think.
    Second, a sperm can fertilize an egg within 1/2 hour. That is why both the morning after pill and the D&C would be a questionable choice for Christians and why so many fight the forced funding of that clause in the insurance..
    Like I said...I will not get approval from either camp. :)

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  9. #95
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lista View Post
    Like I said...I will not get approval from either camp. :)
    But...do you get approval from Holy Spirit? That is really all that matters

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  11. #96
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Not choosing implies a choice to preserve the life of the baby which implies defining it as more valuable. To make things perfectly equal you would either have to involve a toss of the dice, kill every other baby and every other mother or similar. Trying to get away with "I did nothing" which is what you advocate in each scenario is the typical Pacifist's way of reasoning as if doing nothing (or even just not doing anything directly as with the war scenario) makes one less than responsible for the result, which is total nonsense.
    Apparently you are having trouble integrating the third option into your thinking...

    GOD does not insist we choose between one life and the other..it's only man that says it has to be that way so no..not choosing one life over the other is not valuing one over the other..it is valuing what GOD values which is ALL life ...and leaving the results to HIM as I said earlier.

    You can hold a government accountable for atrocities of war because they went to war but I'm not s sure that would hold up especially when in our military we prosecute soldiers who are caught deliberately harming civilians but in some cases it's not their intent...but again, that is not even comparable to someone making a conscious decision to abort a child and another making a conscious decision to do the abortion.

    Colonel I understand that you seem to see some parallel here but I really don't..so going forward I won't address war which I view as a separate and different topic all together..a soldier murdering a woman and her child deliberately even during war times is still murder of two people..

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  13. #97
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Doing nothing and calling that "leaving it to God" is a Pacifistic way of seeing things. The logic is that anything that then happens, amounts to God's will. Meaning that if he doesn't step in and work a miracle then that was God's will. This is what Cessationists and Calvinists typically believe, they see the world as an expression of God's will whatever happens, evil and all. And that is a lie from the pit of hell. Just because the mother dies and the baby survives does not mean that that was God's will simply because he didn't work a miracle to prevent the death of the mother. God works miracles according to faith, prayer, the anointing. They are in no way automatic. When you and I do not have faith for the miraculous then we are still responsible for the result of our doing nothing when we could have done otherwise.

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  15. #98
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Doing nothing and calling that "leaving it to God" is a Pacifistic way of seeing things. The logic is that anything that then happens, amounts to God's will. Meaning that if he doesn't step in and work a miracle then that was God's will. This is what Cessationists and Calvinists typically believe, they see the world as an expression of God's will whatever happens, evil and all. And that is a lie from the pit of hell. Just because the mother dies and the baby survives does not mean that that was God's will simply because he didn't work a miracle to prevent the death of the mother. God works miracles according to faith, prayer, the anointing. They are in no way automatic. When you and I do not have faith for the miraculous then we are still responsible for the result of our doing nothing when we could have done otherwise.
    Placing faith in GOD rather than being boxed into man's so called only options is doing something..it's doing the BEST thing..faith is active, not passive..

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  17. #99
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Placing faith in GOD rather than being boxed into man's so called only options is doing something..it's doing the BEST thing..
    Placing faith in God is not something that one can decide to do by way of mental alignment or will power. If one doesn't have faith for the miraculous then one doesn't have faith. I could decide to behave as if I have faith for moving the mountain ahead of my car and then drive into it "believing" that it will move before I hit it but that doesn't mean that I have that faith nor does it mean that God will move that mountain or else it is his will that I should drive into it and thereby kill myself.

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  19. #100
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Placing faith in God is not something that one can decide to do by way of mental alignment or will power. If one doesn't have faith for the miraculous then one doesn't have faith. I could decide to behave as if I have faith for moving the mountain ahead of my car and then drive into it "believing" that it will move before I hit it but that doesn't mean that I have that faith nor does it mean that God will move that mountain or else it is his will that I should drive into it and thereby kill myself.
    Colonel...we have one directive...Trust and obey...regardless of the outcome if we have made that decision we have made the right one..The first act of faith is to choose to commit our WAY to Him...looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith..

    If I don't have faith for both the lives God values that still does not free me to choose to value mine above the one who has no choice..If the church was more solid in it's teaching and stance on things like this more would be prepared spiritually when the storms come.

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