Thread: Church offering "Conversion therapy" workshop

Originally Posted by Bookman

And very few people ever move from heterosexuality to homosexuality.

I've heard many tell that they didn't develop that 'urge' until they were older. Not all of them had that desire from the get go. And if they aren't born that way as you've already said, then it's a choice, so it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. It's something that develops in their life and they choose to go the way of that urge instead of resist. And he made a going point about the hypocrisy of those coming against him.

If it isn't a choice, it isn't sin.

Originally Posted by fuego

I've heard many tell that they didn't develop that 'urge' until they were older. Not all of them had that desire from the get go. And if they aren't born that way as you've already said, then it's a choice, so it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. It's something that develops in their life and they choose to go the way of that urge instead of resist. And he made a going point about the hypocrisy of those coming against him.

If it isn't a choice, it isn't sin.

There's no contradiction. No one is born homosexual, but as children, they can and some do develop homosexually under the conditions I outlined in a post above. Their developing homosexually as a child is not a choice they make, it just happens. Just as you developed heterosexually without giving it a second thought. I'm sure there was never a day when you had to ponder which choice to make: shall I be sexually attracted to women or to men?

Originally Posted by Bookman

It wasn't a great response. He's hung up on it being a "choice." It is not. And very few people ever move from heterosexuality to homosexuality. Likewise very few move from homosexuality to heterosexuality--at least as an "orientation."

There's lots of people here in Norway that have gone from married with children to living a homosexual lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Colonel

There's lots of people here in Norway that have gone from married with children to living a homosexual lifestyle.

Married with children does not signify heterosexual attractions. Many are the testimonies of homosexual men and women who acknowledged their marriage was a cover for their same sex attractions.

Originally Posted by Bookman

Married with children does not signify heterosexual attractions. Many are the testimonies of homosexual men and women who acknowledged their marriage was a cover for their same sex attractions.

You don't know how common each scenario is and it's politically correct for them to claim that they were always gay or at least bi. I've talked to many.

Originally Posted by Bookman

There's no contradiction. No one is born homosexual, but as children, they can and some do develop homosexually under the conditions I outlined in a post above. Their developing homosexually as a child is not a choice they make, it just happens. Just as you developed heterosexually without giving it a second thought. I'm sure there was never a day when you had to ponder which choice to make: shall I be sexually attracted to women or to men?

No, because heterosexuality is the code we are born with. That makes the other a 'choice'. It's a conditioning against the norm.

Originally Posted by fuego

No, because heterosexuality is the code we are born with. That makes the other a 'choice'. It's a conditioning against the norm.

There's a lot that doesn't involve choice but acting on things involves a choice. Choices shape who we are, there is a feedback involved.

The most basic example is a temptation that one didn't seek. One didn't choose the temptation but one may choose to act on it or not.

Originally Posted by fuego

No, because heterosexuality is the code we are born with. That makes the other a 'choice'. It's a conditioning against the norm.

Right, but it’s a conditioning the child is unaware that’s happening. A child doesn’t choose how he or she is “conditioned.”

Originally Posted by Bookman

Right, but it's a conditioning the child is unaware that's happening. A child doesn't choose how he or she is "conditioned."

No, but they choose to accept the conditioning. They may not know they are being conditioned, but they still accept it. Many adults don't know they're being conditioned, but they accept the conditioning. That makes them responsible for it before God. We can't stand before God and offer ignorance as an excuse. Ignorance doesn't get you a pass into heaven.

The truth about homosexuality may be being 'preached' wrongly in many instances, but it's still the truth and they are being exposed to the truth. Just because someone doesn't like the manner in which it's being presented doesn't excuse them from the responsibility to receive it. Nobody is going to be able to stand before God and use 'but I didn't like the way it was presented to me' as an excuse.

On the other hand, it's not about the sin of homosexuality in and of itself. It's that they are 'sinners'. The core problem needs to be dealt with. I think it's futile to deal with the root problem before trying to deal with the fruit. Although the law deals with the fruit of the sinner to show the way to the root. But actually trying to 'change' them before they are born again is futile. But mentioning it as a sin isn't wrong either. Just read Paul in the gospels.

Originally Posted by Colonel

There's a lot that doesn't involve choice but acting on things involves a choice. Choices shape who we are, there is a feedback involved.

The most basic example is a temptation that one didn't seek. One didn't choose the temptation but one may choose to act on it or not.

Agreed.