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Thread: So I just heard TD Jakes tell a couple to get divorced...

  1. #371
    I state this with a little trepidation after already having been labeled a 'passive aggressive' for an innocent remark, but I am going to distill what I think Quest is saying.

    After stripping all the extraneous stuff away, and what I consider people responding to things Quest wasn't actually saying, this I think is the gist of it:

    The Bible gives a couple of specific reasons for divorce.

    Any reason outside of that should be met with prayer and seeking God.

    One should not necessarily stay physically with a spouse who is physically or mentally abusive. I see where Quest has specifically say separate from them and did not advocate staying around to be beat.

    In other words, one can separate from their spouse without divorcing them from the get-go. Separate and spend time in prayer and fasting for direction, and for the spouse that is doing the abusing. God can change them.

    No relationship is unsalvageable when God is involved. If God tells us to act a certain way toward our enemies, then how much more toward those we love or at least supposedly love. Pray, bless, intercede, fast, etc for them. God has put many marriage back together that were seemingly way beyond repair.

    I think a lot of what has been posted is in reaction to things Quest has not been saying, but an overreaction to what she might be saying or what one thinks she is saying. But it's been pretty clear to me. She has qualified that she is saying.

    I don't see how anyone could argue with her basic premise, which is separate if you have to, and fast and pray about the whole thing and for the other person without running off to divorce court at the first chance. And really pray and fast and seek God and pray for the other person with faith and patience, not just giving it a little lip service, divorcing, and then finding the next person you want to marry which is not the answer.

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  3. #372
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    We also have cases where the spouse commits a serious crime, whether a court of law is able to sentence them for that crime or it is not. The spouse might end up on death row and be unrepentant, or should have been on death row. Or serving an actual life sentence. What now ? Marriage counselling ?

    The spouse might murder the children for instance and get a 20 year sentence. What now ? Wait until the spouse gets out of prison ? Then marriage counselling ? Some scenarios might look pretty much like Cardinal TT's "child pastor abuses children then wants to be restored" scenario.

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  5. #373
    I do understand what she is saying.

    I also understand that she is ONE PERSON.

    She will not answer my questions, actually I think she has answered them by not saying anything at all, about if she has been beaten by her husband and if she has ever been around a rage filled psychopath.

    If she has not, then she CANNOT understand what it is like.

    The psychopath is so very kind and loving when they want you to come back, and it is so easy to believe them and so you do go back. Then the rage and the beatings come again.

    It is an endless cycle.....YEARS and YEARS worth.

    So when an already damaged soul (years of child abuse - both physical, sexual and mental) marries a psychopathic monster because that is what she is accustomed to, that soul (me) is damned in the eyes of Quest?

    Is there no mercy in your heart Quest? I don't think you fully understand the horrid situations many people find themselves in and in not being able to empathize, you disqualify yourself as any form of counselor unless that person being counseled has had a Mary Poppins kind of life.

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  7. #374
    Because of the abuse suffered by battered women I dare say.....THERE IS NO SIN IN DIVORCING SUCH A CRUEL PERSON.

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  9. #375
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I could try a bit harder than that. We had a case here in Norway recently where a husband was unhappy about some minor stuff about his wife and decided to squeeze her eyeballs until she went blind. Then off to prison after the court had decided to invoke some old wartime law used against torturers.

    So what should she do ? Wait for him to get out of prison then go through marriage counselling then be reunited with her husband who will now be completely and utterly in charge of her since she is now blind ?

    That is living hell.

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  11. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I state this with a little trepidation after already having been labeled a 'passive aggressive' for an innocent remark, but I am going to distill what I think Quest is saying.
    Apologies for calling you passive aggressive. Was referring to the statement not your person


    After stripping all the extraneous stuff away, and what I consider people responding to things Quest wasn't actually saying, this I think is the gist of it:
    The Bible gives a couple of specific reasons for divorce.
    We all agree

    Any reason outside of that should be met with prayer and seeking God.
    No she believes that no other reason is allowed. We believe the above not Quest..

    One should not necessarily stay physically with a spouse who is physically or mentally abusive. I see where Quest has specifically say separate from them and did not advocate staying around to be beat.

    In other words, one can separate from their spouse without divorcing them from the get-go. Separate and spend time in prayer and fasting for direction, and for the spouse that is doing the abusing. God can change them.
    Yeah after many pages she did concede that point but in any case Dont think anybody disagrees with this premise. problem though is does not pass the biblical litmus test which Quest herself set as it pertains to divorce in general


    No relationship is unsalvageable when God is involved. If God tells us to act a certain way toward our enemies, then how much more toward those we love or at least supposedly love. Pray, bless, intercede, fast, etc for them. God has put many marriage back together that were seemingly way beyond repair.

    I think a lot of what has been posted is in reaction to things Quest has not been saying, but an overreaction to what she might be saying or what one thinks she is saying. But it's been pretty clear to me. She has qualified that she is saying.

    I don't see how anyone could argue with her basic premise, which is separate if you have to, and fast and pray about the whole thing and for the other person without running off to divorce court at the first chance. And really pray and fast and seek God and pray for the other person with faith and patience, not just giving it a little lip service, divorcing, and then finding the next person you want to marry which is not the answer.

    Sorry Fuego that was not her basic premise . Her basic premise has been that we dont take God's word seriously and have turned to human reasoning /emotions/experiences /pop psychology etc etc to inform our views on divorce while she is a stickler for the word . What you are ascribing to her is actually what we were saying not her

    I do feel a little bad for her though ... I generally have no problems with people disagreeing with me except when they present their cases with the I am more Spiritual than you veneer .. while avoiding questions asked them


    She is a cool chick overall but boy is she hard headed :)

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  13. #377
    I completely disagree with you. If I've misunderstood Quest, I'm ready to be corrected. I said some pages back that Quest would not recommend anyone divorce for any reason, ever. She pretty much concurred. But, if I did misunderstand her, then we go to what BAP said. She believes that adultery is the only reason one can divorce. And if one does divorce because one's spouse slept with 1,493 other people, then the person being cheated on, can NEVER remarry. Ever.

    Now then.....just so we are all clear, here. I don't believe anyone should divorce lightly. I've often said if my husband cheated, I'd probably forgive and stay with him, trying to work things out. He is my best friend and I'd really hate to loose him. So even though I'd have a "biblical" reason to divorce, I likely would NOT, depending upon the circumstances. So again.....I don't take marriage or remarriage lightly. At all.

    With that said, it is unfathomable to me that because Jesus didn't specifically mention a psychopathic spouse who wants to murder you, that it's not a legitimate reason to divorce and remarry. Can God work "all things together for good" in a horrific situation? Yes. But if the offending spouse shows no signs of repentance, it is unfathomable that God expects the wronged spouse to remain in marriage purgatory until one or the other spouse dies.

    What I find so odd is that with all of this talk of covenant and whatnot, that there seems to be no responsibility given to the offending spouse on any level whatsoever. If husbands are supposed to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, why is that NEVER mentioned when discussing abuse? I mean...is that just an optional thing? I think Zeke said this once when discussing this. He said something to the effect that when a man beats a woman, he is in effect, acting as a demonically-controlled, ungodly, person. He is not behaving in any sort of godly manner, so is that really a "covenant"? No, it's not.

    As the offended spouse separates, prays and fasts, he/she should not be expected to stay in marriage purgatory for all eternity. Pray, trust God, do warefare, etc....YES. No one is saying any different. But there should be real signs of repentance; deliverance, counseling, real fruit being displayed, etc.....

    I *know* God can change people. That's not what any of us are talking about. We are talking about keeping a spouse hanging on by a thread for years, with the offending spouse not repenting.

    IMO, some things are simply self-evident. God doesn't tell us in scripture to tie our shoelaces to avoid tripping over untied ones. Duh. Same with a spouse beating another, acting like a demon, with reckless disregard for the spouse being beat.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I state this with a little trepidation after already having been labeled a 'passive aggressive' for an innocent remark, but I am going to distill what I think Quest is saying.

    After stripping all the extraneous stuff away, and what I consider people responding to things Quest wasn't actually saying, this I think is the gist of it:

    The Bible gives a couple of specific reasons for divorce.

    Any reason outside of that should be met with prayer and seeking God.

    One should not necessarily stay physically with a spouse who is physically or mentally abusive. I see where Quest has specifically say separate from them and did not advocate staying around to be beat.

    In other words, one can separate from their spouse without divorcing them from the get-go. Separate and spend time in prayer and fasting for direction, and for the spouse that is doing the abusing. God can change them.

    No relationship is unsalvageable when God is involved. If God tells us to act a certain way toward our enemies, then how much more toward those we love or at least supposedly love. Pray, bless, intercede, fast, etc for them. God has put many marriage back together that were seemingly way beyond repair.

    I think a lot of what has been posted is in reaction to things Quest has not been saying, but an overreaction to what she might be saying or what one thinks she is saying. But it's been pretty clear to me. She has qualified that she is saying.

    I don't see how anyone could argue with her basic premise, which is separate if you have to, and fast and pray about the whole thing and for the other person without running off to divorce court at the first chance. And really pray and fast and seek God and pray for the other person with faith and patience, not just giving it a little lip service, divorcing, and then finding the next person you want to marry which is not the answer.

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  15. #378
    One last thought. When a person follows the precepts laid out in scripture, I believe that blessing follows. I believe that same-sex relations are banned for a reason. I believe that God forbade beastiality for a reason. I believe that God forbade conjuring spirits and talking to the dead for a reason. So the point is this. There are always legitimate reasons for following scripture....and viewing the consequences (unintended and otherwise), and how this plays out is very real and not imagined at all. Romans 1 comes to mind specifically. So what point am I making? God's Word, makes sense. All of it. Forgiving a violent spouse makes sense.....they were probably brutalized or abused themselves. But forcing a spouse to be married until said spouse passes away, for Lord only knows how long, does not make sense, and the unintended consequences for this "law", has consequences that are horrific, especially in cultures where there is no option to divorce a brutal, violent, spouse (like in Islam). One should be able to point to innumerable women (I say this about women because they are more offended in this manner than the other way around), who were blessed in their singleness though they were unable to remarry (according to Quest), because of a violent or adulterous spouse. What blessing is there in being single and raising children, unable to share your life with another spouse, who might love you with all of his heart?

    I just for the life of me, cannot understand this in light of the fact that CLEARLY a covenant was not apparent in a marriage where one spouse is getting abused. I understand taking a vow, but again...going back to what I said earlier. A physically abusive person usually emotionally manipulates their spouse before the marriage, putting on a completely different face. That is a marriage that is fraudulent from the jump. God did not join the two together. The case could be made that maybe the person didn't seek God enough, that is probably true. But does God want that person tormented for years because they didn't see what they were getting into?

    Don't mean to go long, but I have been thinking about this and this was an important point I didn't make in the other post.

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  17. #379

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  19. #380
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    "marriage was made for man and not man for marriage"

    I mentioned this previously, it's a variation of the principle Jesus stated about the Sabbath.

    "the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath"

    The common denominator is that both are or were God given institutions.

    Employing this very general principle requires a good understanding of when and under what circumstances marriage is beneficial for man to remain in it. Of when the first part of the sentence turns into the other part of the sentence, so to speak. When keeping up with the marriage becomes a matter of subjecting man to be a slave to the "marriage god" and not to the God who is lord over all the commandments in his Word.

    "I don't like my wife and want a new, younger and more subservient model" does not imply that the person is heading towards where "marriage is for me" instead of "I am being subjected to marriage", for instance. The flesh will be happy with the carnage but that is about it.

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