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Thread: So I just heard TD Jakes tell a couple to get divorced...

  1. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Legalism and obeying scriptural instructions are not the same thing..legalism is obedience for the sake of earning salvation or God's love...we don't obey the scriptures and stay married to earn either of those...we do it to be like HIM...because we desire to be the expression of His character and nature more...and because we trust His love and faithfulness to change us and work on our behalf..

    One has to not clearly understand God's view of marriage to believe that He ever views divorce as a necessity...His love and power know no limits.

    Proverbs..Commit your way unto the LORD...decide to submit your decisions and choices to simply obey Him and He will establish your thoughts...He will direct our day to day life with our spouse once we eliminate divorce as an option....
    You keep repeating the same mantra like a broken record ..

    Says who , the Pharisees obeyed the sciptures didnt they ? Werent they legalistic?

    Is living in a decent marriage not part of God's salvation plan ? Being like him huh ? Show me a single place apart from during his passion and crucifixion from which he has arisen in the bible where Jesus allowed himself to be mistreated or abused be it physically or mentally. If you didnt want him he moved on didnt he ? he deifintely didnt force himself on anyone or force anybody to stay who didnt want to stay did he ?

    And as I asked you before why then does he allow it in the case of adultery or in the case of the departing unbeliever ? Isn't his love and Power bigger than adultery and departing spouses ? Why cant you invoke his love and power to stop that spouse from committing adultery or from asking to depart in the first place ?

    God's love and power doesn't override the human will .. People go to hell everyday despite God's love and power

    Enough of the legalism please

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  3. #192
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    So let's say scripture tells us we are not to lie..oh wait, you already said that was legalism because at times God approves lying..never mind I
    get where you stand...

    @@@Yeah, for instance lying to murderous nazis about hiding Jews. If you fail to do that in real life then you are a murderer. You are responsible for the result of your choice to do nothing, even by refusing to answer their question. You may tell me that you are going to operate in the gift of faith at will and they will happily ignore your failure to answer the question and head on to the next door and then forget all about it but if that fails then we are back to your being a murderer.

    Needless to say, I don't agree that that is the correct interpretation and application of that passage because you are trying to use to justify options regarding divorce the scriptures don't give using passage that is clearly speaking of the rituals and ordinances of the OT that were pointing to Christ. To apply that to scriptures clear instructions regarding the knowledge of sin and God's will is wrong..

    @@@I haven't generally justified any specific case of divorce based on anything. One can certainly not create blanket rules based on less than specific statements in scripture.

    If your interpretation were correct we could add the following..

    Adultery is a sin except when...

    @@@Adultery is a sin of the heart and is always a sin. We would have to reword it into "have sex with someone else than the person you first married is a sin except when" and then there are possible exceptions.

    Lying is wrong except when...

    @@@If we are to go by the ten commandments then they say "giving false testimony against your neighbor" which relates a false claim of some weight against an innocent person. It's difficult to imagine that that could possibly be justified under any circumstance whatsoever.

    Stealing is wrong except when...

    @@@I don't know, in order to save someone's life perhaps ? I could construct some theoretical scenario for that but I won't bother to.

    ect..

    And quite frankly Colonel, you are convincing me that is what you believe..

    I would almost BET you would pick and choose which ones should have the "when' and which ones don't...you would probably argue tht adultery is NEVER justified because there is no good that can come from it...funny though...some would argue that they were justified and that YOU are using the 'letter of legalism'. And then you turn around and say that lying IS permissible because it can be used to do good...and on the abortion thread you validated murder as justified when the health of the mother is in the mix..

    @@@Murder is another sin of the heart. Killing someone is justified under certain circumstances by the Bible, including during a justifiable war, in self defense and in terms of a death penalty issued by a court of law. And then the act doesn't amount to murder.

    So, yes, bro...I am a legalist by YOUR definition, but not one by scripture.

    @@@READING COMPREHENSION. I just said above that legalism is to earn salvation by keeping law. Which is not what you advocate. I introduced a different term, "lettermindedness" for instance, to cover what you adhere to far too strongly.

    I choose to believe that when Jesus made the statement that there was only ONE ground for divorce that He meant it and that He was expressing the heart and will of God..that there were no implied or stated Buts or addendums or special clauses...I believe what God states is sin, is sin..no exceptions for our personal experiences...it's sin..so when Jesus stated the Father's will in marriage I believe God's children are expected to embrace the Father's will and trust Him with the outcome...
    .

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  5. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    @@@Yeah, for instance lying to murderous nazis about hiding Jews..............Means you Know Not that the Power and Love of God has no Limits afterall the a bible says you must not Lie. God did not put you on earth but to glorify him so you dont glorify him by lying even if you saved Jews from Nazi's .................................. If you fail to do that in real life then you are a murderer. You are responsible for the result of your choice to do nothing, even by refusing to answer their question.
    Good one colonel ... :)

    BAP's addition

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  7. #194
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAP View Post
    You keep repeating the same mantra like a broken record ..

    So do you

    Says who , the Pharisees obeyed the sciptures didnt they ? Werent they legalistic?

    Right...Jesus did not tell them their actions were wrong..He told them the motives of their heart was wrong..
    Is living in a decent marriage not part of God's salvation plan ? Being like him huh ? Show me a single place apart from during his passion and crucifixion from which he has arisen in the bible where Jesus allowed himself to be mistreated or abused be it physically or mentally. If you didnt want him he moved on didnt he ? he deifintely didnt force himself on anyone or force anybody to stay who didnt want to stay did he ?

    AFTER salvation we were married to Him...so no, He has never left anyone who He joined in covenant with...not one.

    And as I asked you before why then does he allow it in the case of adultery or in the case of the departing unbeliever ? Isn't his love and Power bigger than adultery and departing spouses ? Why cant you invoke his love and power to stop that spouse from committing adultery or from asking to depart in the first place ?

    Notice He corrected the Pharisees...He told them Moses allowed them to do that in the beginning it was not so..God does not intend for us to divorce.
    Why adultery? I guess we would have to do a study of adultery in covenant...


    God's love and power doesn't override the human will .. People go to hell everyday despite God's love and power

    Enough of the legalism please
    I agree that God's love and power can be resisted...but that is between them and God..Our response is what we are discussing because we are only accountable for our on choices. I do believe that far more often the marriages would be healed though..based on testimony of some who have done this and seen God work a miracles in both of their hearts..

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  9. #195
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Let's look at this from a different POV....when two people, or even just one, gets wounded and angry or they just stop being in love or they decide they want different things from life what do we know right away?

    That one or the other or BOTH are not being led by the Holy Spirit...because He tells us to love...to forgive...and if following Him He is going to led the two as one...

    So if one party surrenders to HIS will for their marriage to be the spouse they are called to be they take themselves out of the way...they don't fight, they don't blame, they don't accuse, they just love and act on the fruit of the Spirit...now there is no longer a tug of war...

    That is what God wants us to do..I understand that when one is in the frey this can be the hardest challenge of their walk but it can also become the most fruitful..
    Does it hurt? Yes, Does it violate our pride? Yes, Does it make us fearful? Sometimes..

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  11. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Let's look at this from a different POV....when two people, or even just one, gets wounded and angry or they just stop being in love or they decide they want different things from life what do we know right away?

    That one or the other or BOTH are not being led by the Holy Spirit...because He tells us to love...to forgive...and if following Him He is going to led the two as one...

    So if one party surrenders to HIS will for their marriage to be the spouse they are called to be they take themselves out of the way...they don't fight, they don't blame, they don't accuse, they just love and act on the fruit of the Spirit...now there is no longer a tug of war...

    That is what God wants us to do..I understand that when one is in the frey this can be the hardest challenge of their walk but it can also become the most fruitful..
    Does it hurt? Yes, Does it violate our pride? Yes, Does it make us fearful? Sometimes..
    Thing is most folks nowadays go for the "forgive me Father for what I am about to do", junk the spouse and cling to grace. I seem to recall you defending that course of action in a recent thread, rather vociferously I might add.

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  13. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Let's look at this from a different POV....when two people, or even just one, gets wounded and angry or they just stop being in love or they decide they want different things from life what do we know right away?

    That one or the other or BOTH are not being led by the Holy Spirit...because He tells us to love...to forgive...and if following Him He is going to led the two as one...

    So if one party surrenders to HIS will for their marriage to be the spouse they are called to be they take themselves out of the way...they don't fight, they don't blame, they don't accuse, they just love and act on the fruit of the Spirit...now there is no longer a tug of war...

    That is what God wants us to do..I understand that when one is in the frey this can be the hardest challenge of their walk but it can also become the most fruitful..
    Does it hurt? Yes, Does it violate our pride? Yes, Does it make us fearful? Sometimes..
    You are absolutely right Sometimes we are led this way and other times we are not.

    It's those times when we are not that your invoking of adultery as the ONLY ground or Departure by an Unbelieving Spouse BECOMES LEGALISM ..

    Therein lies the Point ... Ultimately it should be all Spirit led and yes sometimes the Spirit will tell you to Move to the roof of the House ... sometimes he will tell you to let Good overcome Evil and stay in the house anyway It's called Spirit led Wisdom hence the reason why I brought up the facts


    As the book of Ecclesiastes says ther is a season for everything under the sun

    There is a time for everything,
    and a season for every activity under the heavens:
    2 a time to be born and a time to die,
    a time to plant and a time to uproot,
    3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
    a time to tear down and a time to build,
    4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
    a time to mourn and a time to dance,
    5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
    a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
    6 a time to search and a time to give up,
    a time to keep and a time to throw away,
    7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
    a time to be silent and a time to speak,
    8 a time to love and a time to hate,
    a time for war and a time for peace.

    I ahve underlined all the verses in that Proverb that could easily apply to a divorce situatoio0n . And note that the proverb covers every activity under heaven which would include Marriage and Divorce

    Long and short of it the two verses you keep harping on do not cover all of God's mind on the subject of marriage and divorce . They simply dont and to continue to insist as such is legalism pure and simple ..

    Ultimately it's all about being led by the Spirit based on the sum of all scriptures as the Colonel has repeatedly pointed not legal laws stripped of linguistic or cultural context

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  15. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAP View Post
    You are absolutely right Sometimes we are led this way and other times we are not.

    It's those times when we are not that your invoking of adultery as the ONLY ground or Departure by an Unbelieving Spouse BECOMES LEGALISM ..

    Therein lies the Point ... Ultimately it should be all Spirit led and yes sometimes the Spirit will tell you to Move to the roof of the House ... sometimes he will tell you to let Good overcome Evil and stay in the house anyway It's called Spirit led Wisdom hence the reason why I brought up the facts


    As the book of Ecclesiastes says ther is a season for everything under the sun




    I ahve underlined all the verses in that Proverb that could easily apply to a divorce situatoio0n . And note that the proverb covers every activity under heaven which would include Marriage and Divorce

    Long and short of it the two verses you keep harping on do not cover all of God's mind on the subject of marriage and divorce . They simply dont and to continue to insist as such is legalism pure and simple ..

    Ultimately it's all about being led by the Spirit based on the sum of all scriptures as the Colonel has repeatedly pointed not legal laws stripped of linguistic or cultural context
    Going NT here...trying to strip away any legalism.

    Jesus said it all comes down to loving your neighbor as yourself, and loving the Lord God with all your mind, soul, and strength. (Lisa paraphrase)

    If we divorce someone because they don't make us happy, or they don't provide financially, etc. are we loving them as ourselves? Wouldn't we give ourselves a pass on these?

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  17. #199
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAP View Post
    And note that the proverb covers every activity under heaven which would include Marriage and Divorce
    Ummm...BAP ? Does that mean that everyone should eventually divorce since there is a time for that under heaven ? Does "every activity under heaven" include murder, fraud, rape ? Careful with the logic of what you are saying here.

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  19. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    So if one party surrenders to HIS will for their marriage to be the spouse they are called to be they take themselves out of the way...they don't fight, they don't blame, they don't accuse, they just love and act on the fruit of the Spirit...now there is no longer a tug of war...
    That may not always be the case. You sound like some psychologist who starts with the premise that man is inherently good and once problems as in frictions or misunderstandings are resolved then everyone will be well behaved. People are sinful and are quite capable of deciding to harbor on unforgiveness, resentment, hatred etc. They are quite capable of returning evil for good. They are even capable of being evil and doing their best to make sure that things do not work out. Some even play the game of willfully creating problems until the other party demands a divorce and then they can leave with their head held high (and looking good in the eyes of their peers) and go elsewhere.

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