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Thread: So I just heard TD Jakes tell a couple to get divorced...

  1. #111
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I don't see any difference there. First he refers to the act of sending one's wife away, out of the household. In those days that typically meant returning to one's original family and then seeking marriage to an other man. So that act implied divorce. It certainly did not mean separating for a time to think about whether to start an independent life or to return back to the husband. The reason why they were instructed to give the abandoned wife a certificate of divorce when doing that was so that she could prove that she had reason for not being a virgin any longer when seeking a new husband.

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  3. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    What truth? after 62 pages you ask that? There is ONLY ONE reason for divorce...adultery and even then it's viewed as a hardening of the heart...
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Matthew 19

    19 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.

    3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?"

    4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,'5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."

    7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"

    8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."

    Jesus was very legalistic apparently...

    I haven't finished the thread yet but it seems your main point revolves around the misinterpretation of the Hebrew word shalach in the OT and its Greek equivalent apoulo in the NT which were loosely translated as divorce...they are not referring to a divorce as we know it, but rather to a husband 'separating' from his wife without an actual writ of divorcement being written.

    I know you don't agree with that interpretation Quest but if you do a thorough study on all the times those words are used you will see the correct contexts. This is an excellent site that goes into detail on the Matthew 19 passage as well as others that refer to 'divorce':



    Book of Matthew 19, ( Matt 19 ) Bible Study on Divorce (Putting Away) and Remarriage.

    As we study the Greek and Hebrew words in Matt 19 and Malachi 2 we will learn that "divorce" was NOT what Jesus was teaching about, but rather, "putting away" which is far different than divorce...


    Understanding what happened in Malachi 2:10-16 is KEY to understanding Matthew 19:3-12 ( Matt 19 ).

    Malachi 2:16a reads, "For the Lord God of Israel says that HE HATES DIVORCE (putting away)." Why did God hate "putting away?" Why was His heart so stirred to anger over the "putting away" incidents?

    The Hebrew word shalach translated "putting away" (and sometimes "divorce") means: a separation or to separate; it does NOT mean divorce nor has it ever meant divorce — EVER!


    "Putting Away" (from shalach and apoluo) NEVER Meant Divorce!

    For example, shalach is used 878 times in the Old Testament and only 13 times related to a marriage or intimate relationship, which means; 865 times it is used in other situations. To show you that shalach never meant divorce nor does it in any way, here are five random examples from the Old Testament. Shalach word in bold:


    1. Genesis 8:7: (Noah on the Ark) ...of the ark which he had made. And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to...
    2. Genesis 24:7: (God giving Abraham the Promised Land) ...Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee...
    3. Exodus 5:1: (Moses delivering Israel from Egypt) ...the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto...
    4. Joshua 6:25: (Rahab hid the Spies) ...day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.
    5. 2 Kings 5:10: (Naaman healed) ...of the house of Elisha. And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and ...


    Shalach's New Testament equivalent: apoluo, though at times is translated divorce never meant divorce nor does it mean divorce but rather, a separation.

    For example, apoluo is used 94 times in the New Testament and only 18 times related to marriage or intimate relationships. Which means it is used 76 times in other situations. To show you that apoluo never meant divorce, here are five random examples form the New Testament. Apoluo word in bold:


    1. Matthew 14:15: (Jesus feeds the Five Thousand) ...desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go ...
    2. Luke 8:38: (Man with/ 2000 plus Demons) ...that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying, Return to thine
    3. Luke 13:12: (Woman with the Issue of Blood) ...her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And he laid ...
    4. Acts 4:23: (Lame man healed at the Gate Called Beautiful) ...this miracle of healing was shewed. And being let go, they went to their own company, and...
    5. Acts 15:33: (Judas & Silas Leaving Antioch) ...And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the...


    God Hates "Putting Away" NOT Divorce!

    Therefore, we can see that Jesus (God) who dealt with the Israelites in Malachi 2:16 regarding "putting away," it was the same issue with the Pharisees in Matt 19 when He came to earth to redeem mankind. The "putting away" problem was still continuing.

    The Prophet Malachi and Ezra were contemporaries together in 430 B.C. — both of them were dealing with the "putting away" problem with the people of God. Here is a condensed version of Ezra 9,10 of that situation:

    God's people "have taken [them] as wives ...in this wicked act and direct violation [of God's will]. And now, for a brief moment, GRACE HAS BEEN SHOWN US by the Lord our God..., who has left us a remnant TO ESCAPE... they solemnly vowed to PUT AWAY [separated from] their wives, ...UNTIL THE FIERCE WRATH OF OUR GOD OVER THIS MATTER IS TURNED FROM US" (Ezra 9, 10).

    The same thing was happening in Malachi 2:14-16. The husbands were not divorcing but were just separating "putting away" their wives and remarrying other women without ever getting a divorce. This is what made God so angry. I believe the husbands knew that if they were not lawfully divorced (by giving their wife a Divorce Certificate) it gave them an excuse not to give back to the wife (or her father) the "dowry of the bride" that they paid for her when they were first married. This could of course have been a great price. However, the wives could not marry someone else without committing adultery unless they had a Certificate of Divorce that Moses COMMANDED their husbands to give when divorcing — which brings us to the book of Matthew 19:3...

    http://www.divorcehope.com/bookofmat...biblestudy.htm


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  5. #113
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Where in Ezra 9-10 does it say that God was angry with the Israelites for separating/divorcing from their pagan wives ?

    It is quite clear from reading the chapters that God was angry with them for marrying them to begin with and that the act of separating/divorcing from them is what turned God's wrath away from them, meaning he came to be pleased with them.

    For short, the article you quoted is completely ridiculous.

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  7. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Where in Ezra 9-10 does it say that God was angry with the Israelites for separating/divorcing from their pagan wives ?

    It doesn't, it was given as an example of 'putting away'.

    It is quite clear from reading the chapters that God was angry with them for marrying them to begin with and that the act of separating/divorcing from them is what turned God's wrath away from them, meaning he came to be pleased with them.
    Correct.

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  9. #115
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    If it was right for them to put away (whatever that means) their pagan wives then what exactly is the point being made by the article ?

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  11. #116
    Senior Member Lively Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Now you have changed it to say 'a form of adultery'.
    It is best to leave adultery as defined by scripture and not by our human reasoning
    I normally kick human reasoning to the curb in matters such as this.

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  13. #117
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Krystian has linked that site several times the last ten years or so. It goes way too far and often down the wrong avenues, in my opinion.

    I agree....it makes some valid points but it stretches toooo far as Colonel said

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  15. #118
    I have read the entire thread and still......just because two people 'join' themselves together, it doesn't mean God did it.

    "What God has joined together, let not man put asunder." There is meaning in that sentence and it isn't just one layer deep.

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  17. #119
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Actually Ezra 9-10 can be used as an example of God disapproving of someone's choice of spouse. These were Israelites who could and should have married non-idol-worshipping Jewish women, instead they married idol-worshipping pagans. The fact that God specifically disapproves of this without referring to a specific commandment not to do so (I'm not sure there is one) and his wrath is stilled by their act of divorcing those women demonstrates that this is not tied to some commandment in the law that Jesus reinterprets later. They obviously divorced then remarried as well, this time to Jewish women.

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  19. #120
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The passage from Malachi is very different :

    2:14 NKJV
    Yet you say, “For what reason?”
    Because the Lord has been witness
    Between you and the wife of your youth,
    With whom you have dealt treacherously;
    Yet she is your companion
    And your wife by covenant.

    "the wife of your youth" implies that they have been married a long time and have both grown old. Old in those days began at type 40 when the woman no longer could have children, eyesight typically became quite poor etc. The implication is probably that they have gone after younger wives, possibly pagan wives. Whether that implies making them concubines then ignoring the original wife or divorcing then remarrying. Ignoring the original wife is not the same as sending her away with a divorce paper, that is more like "separation within the household". At least in terms of every kind of genuine affection.

    15a But did He not make them one,
    Having a remnant of the Spirit?
    And why one?
    He seeks godly offspring.

    The above is a very difficult verse. The Norwegian translation has it say the following (my translation into English)

    15a N1930 But hasn't one done this and still remained alive ? But what did this one do ? He sought to obtain the offspring that God had promised him.

    Meaning it refers to Abraham's act of taking a concubine (Hagar) to secure offspring (through Ishmael) because his original wife could no longer have children. Which wasn't God's plan but he didn't punish him for it either.

    15b Therefore take heed to your spirit,
    And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
    16
    “For the Lord God of Israel says
    That He hates divorce,
    For it covers one’s garment with violence,”
    Says the Lord of hosts.
    “Therefore take heed to your spirit,
    That you do not deal treacherously.”

    God hates divorce per default. But there are legitimate grounds for divorcing. God hates abortion per default. But there are legitimate grounds for having an abortion. The inevitable loss of the mother's life, for instance. The above is a very good example that there was not legitimate grounds for divorce, just Jewish men lusting for younger women and perhaps from a different tribe that they found especially attractive or interesting, it could even be that they found their idol worshipping practices intriguing and felt like getting closer to the fire, so to speak.

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